Croke park funding

[paul_oshea]

I did a bit of research because of reders posts in relation to tax payers money and here is what I found:
Something that has been lost in the massive propaganda campaign waged against the GAA by the media in general and Independent newspapers in particular, are the facts. The reconstruction of Croke Park cost a total of €260 million. The GAA, an amateur organisation, set about the redevelopment work on their own, with no guarantee of financial help from the government. In fact, the new Cusack Stand was completed and paid for in cash before Charlie McCreevy made the first government donation towards the project. This money was neither requested by the GAA nor expected but was graciously accepted as there were no strings attached. Over the years the Government made further contributions and all together they totalled €110 million. This is the figure that is always used for the mythical "tax payers money" that has been used by certain sections of the media as a stick to beat the GAA with. The truth is that only €19 million of tax payers money was donated to the Croke Park project and this was to ensure that acceptable facilities would be in place at the stadium for the opening and closing ceremonies of the Special Olympics. The remaining €91 million came from lottery funding. If I recall correctly the National Lottery was set up to raise funds for sports infrastructure projects. So the contribution the tax-payer made to Croke Park amounted to less than 7.5% of the total construction costs.

So basically, the 110 mill being bandied about on here only 19 million of it was from taxpayers money.

Now look at the figures for the reconstruction of Landsdowne Road. After the demise of the "Bertie Bowl" the government announced that the new national stadium would instead be a rebuilt Landsdowne Road. Knowing that Croke Park would be the only option for hosting home rugby and soccer internationals in Dublin, John O'Donoghue announced that the new stadium would be of suitable dimensions to hold football, hurling, soccer and rugby matches. This of course was a blatant lie and was used as another point of leverage in opening Croke Park. For example, if Landsdowne Road would host GAA games then why shouldn't Croke Park host professional games. O'Donoghue also announced that the estimated cost for the redevelopment of the new venue would be €345 million. This project will receive €191 million in government aid of which €127 million will be from taxpayers money. So that's 37% of the total cost as opposed to 7.5% for Croke Park which is made up of tax payers money. How come I don't hear any journalists or pundits screaming these figures from their soap boxes. It should be noted however that the €345 million is just an estimate and the total cost is likely to be much more with the extra funds coming from the taxpayer.

Even of the 7.5% of funding, it is a known fact that the money the GAA have paid in VAT back to the government through the running of Croke Park far out weighs any money that the government paid out in the form of grants in the first place.

[pete]

There was already a thread on this. I will merger when have time to find.

Your figures are more or less correct however your attempt to separate Lottery from Tax Payer money is pointless as allocated from the Government. Makes no difference where it comes from. By that same logic I could ask why does the GAA get Lottery funding & the FAI/IRFU now?

When you compare the sum allocated for Croke Park & Lansdowne Road you will see GAA gets 110m & FAI & IRFU each get 90-95m so everyone on more or less similar sums which is fair. If I allowed for inflation would move the GAA money up a bit but not that much. Lansdowne Road will have more benefit to the economy as involves visits from foreigners into Ireland as opposed to recycling irish money from the "provinces" to Dublin.

[paul_oshea]

ya i agree with the last sentence above..better to have foreign inward investment.

It does matter becuase everyone was saying its taxpayers money. i.e. yours, dodge, wws, peadar, macy, kingdom and the rest of those on homesoil on this board, which it clearly isnt

[Macy]

Is it public money? Yes
Is it allocated by the Government? Yes
Is it taxpayers that play the lotto? Yes
Was it allocated to Croke Park? Yes
Without the public money would it have been possible? Maybe, but...
Without the public money would the GAA be crippled with debt? Yes
Was the money given at the expense of other sporting organisations? Yes
How much was given to the FAI for eircom park? Zero
How much was given to the IRFU for Newlands Cross? Zero
Could they be expected to develop new stadiums without Government investment similar to what Croke Park rec'd? No


I hate being proved so comprehensibly wrong.

[Kingdom]

Now Paul hang on a second. Its not just about Croke Park really is it? Its about acres and acres of land across the country, that was effectively given to GAA clubs after partition. If there was a level playing field from the start then no soccer supporter in the country could have any reason to be bitter towards the GAA, but it wasn't and they should be. You know yourself Paul that I love the GAA as much as football but people have to see the wood from the trees. ******ology such as banning soccer from secondary schools is why so many people hate the GAA and can you blame them.
As you say the figures might not add up to Hundreds of millions of tax payers money, but I would bet that if you were to take a look at grants given to clubs over the past ten years there would be an unbelieveable bias towards GAA clubs the width and breadth of the country over soccer clubs. It will be another two generations before this type of nonsense levels off I'd reckon.
The GAA should be commended on Croker, tis a fine stadium, but the nonsense that they built it on their own is a load of me ballax.

[Kingdom]

How much was given to the FAI for eircom park? Zero

Could they be expected to develop new stadiums without Government investment similar to what Croke Park rec'd? No


I hate being proved so comprehensibly wrong.

I'm not trying to prove someone so comprehensibly wrong, but it is the above points that I grate on.

Without knowing the ins and outs of Bernard O'Byrne's business dealings (it seemed to me that he was sacked on a technicality), we should be playing in Eircom Park, our own stadium. My recollection of it was that there wasn't great support for it within the FAI and the fact that the cnut Ahern was so against it (I mean ffs Floodlights affecting Baldonnell! ) probably was the nail in the coffin. We should have somewhere to call ourt own.

[paul_oshea]

macy, that 7.5 % quickly becomes less than 3% if you factor out vat and income tax payed back to the govt, so how you are saying they would be in debt, is more than ridiculous. Secondly, if i buy lots of pints of heineken should I have a say in how its made? Eh no, I dont think so. same goes with the lotto. i dont really know what point has any relevance bar this one maybe.
: Is it allocated by the Government? Yes

The salaries of some of the FAI officials were paid by the Irish Sports Council at one stage.


Kingdom, I know what you are saying. I agree with ye, it was just someone said it was completely tax payers money that made up that 110 million. Its kinda like saying if 10,000 american tourists come into ireland and play the lotto, they should be allowed use it for baseball based on what macy was saying.

[Macy]

eircom park was financial suicide without Government support. O'Byrne was right that Ahern couldn't be trusted, but at the time there was no choice to be made. Zero funding for eircom Park, or use of a national stadium with a sweet deal on advance ticket sales. There was no choice to be made. The FAI couldn't afford it on their own, and the Government were adamant there would be no support for it and were going to create issues around Baldonnell whilst nudging those against O'Byrne to make a power play by dangling grant money in front of their eyes to sign up for Abbotstown.

[Macy]

macy, that 7.5 % quickly becomes less than 3% if you factor out vat and income tax payed back to the govt.

So you're still claiming that Grants aren't public money?

The salaries of some of the FAI officials were paid by the Irish Sports Council at one stage.

Who, how much, and was it only the FAI that received such money?

[paul_oshea]

Macy, you have a choice to play the lotto, you dont have a choice to pay tax.

kingdom someone once made this point to me "of course we [gaa] were in the fortunate position of not having to sack our last three CEOs for dipping into the kitty.....did the guys who pushed the opening up of our grounds do it for altruisitic reasons or perhaps was there an element of self promotion involved ??. "

[Dodge]

Macy, you have a choice to play the lotto, you dont have a choice to pay tax.

But the government chooses where the money goes, not those who play...

(oh and BTW it wasn't set up to fund sports (as you said in original posts) its supposed to support aarts and other charities too

[Macy]

Macy, you have a choice to play the lotto, you dont have a choice to pay tax.

I repeat, is it public money? I have choice whether to play the lotto I don't have a choice where the money goes - elected politicians allocate public money. Some people do decide not to pay tax in this state, they move abroad.

[paul_oshea]

last time I looked there was no development in either eircom park or newlands cross so why would either organisation get funding for something which they failed to start.......

Also on a point being a tax payer is not a pre-requisisteto buying a lotto ticket so it's disingenious to say its tax payers money. It came from lotto funding not from income taxation revenue

I don't believe that separating tax payers money from lottery money is pointless either. One of the main reasons the National Lottery was set up to fund the building of sports facilities throughout the country. Club grounds across the nation, in all codes, have benefited enormously from this initiative. Croke Park received €91 million of its €110 million from this source, the almost negligible remainder coming from the tax-payer. Lansdowne will receive €64 million from the National Lottery to go with at least a whopping €127 million from the tax-payer. People are making the claim that "our money" was used to build Croke Park, but it wasn't, it is mostly the GAA's own funds allied with money we lost by gambling on the Lotto. When you buy a ticket you don't do so with the understanding that the money goes to a soccer club, a GAA club or a baton twirling club.

The GAA had to make VAT and income tax payments to the government. In the near future, if not already, the GAA will have paid the government more than the €110 million received. The government made an investment and have received a return on that investment.

[WeAreRovers]

Something that has been lost in the massive propaganda campaign waged against the GAA by the media in general and Independent newspapers in particular, are the facts.

From yesterday's Independent - "And how an amateur sports body, charged with protecting the indigenous culture of a small island, has evolved into a unique Irish success story.

The GAA has acquired such self-assurance that now it can throw its doors open to the competing, and professional, codes of soccer and rugby - which is why the floodlights were installed in the first place. But it was nonetheless fitting, and a little bit special, that the first clash under their soft glow should be of a Gaelic character."

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=15222

That's your anti-GAA propoganda for you. The rest of your post is financial semantics trying to justify taxpayers money funding the GAA.

KOH

[paul_oshea]

Was the money given at the expense of other sporting organisations? Yes
No it wasn't. Croke Park was already under development. When the GAA received the first Lotto grant the Cusack Stand was already built and paid for. The organisation had a long term plan with funds to be secured from ticket plans and loans to complete the remainder of the stadium. The governments investment just speeded up the process.

How much was given to the FAI for eircom park? Zero
Eircom Park was scuppered internally by the FAI. Bernard Byrne, correct me if that's not his name, came up with a potentially disastrous plan to build a home for Irish Soccer. It was based on holding 60 sell out events in the stadium per year. This was also at a time when Croke Park was being rebuilt and Bertie had put forward proposals for a national stadium in Abbotstown. A power struggle in the FAI ensued, Byrne was removed from office, Bertie paid the FAI a nice sweetener to run with the Bertie Bowl and Eircom Park never came into existence. Why would they receive money to build Eircom Park when a single sod was never turned.

How much was given to the IRFU for Newlands Cross? Zero
The IRFU would never move to Newlands Cross. If they did build a new stadium at the site it could be an 80,000 seater, however, fans don't want to move from South Dublin and the tradition and history associated with the venue. Again, why would an organisation receive money for a project that was never going to go ahead.

Could they be expected to develop new stadiums without Government investment similar to what Croke Park rec'd? No
The GAA never made any allowances for the receipt of money from the government. They had already started a realistic and manageable project before the government decided to get involved. The FAI's plan was pie in the sky stuff. The IRFU were happy to continue with a venue from the Victorian facilities. Both are only able to commence building a stadium when they have received assurances that the government will foot at least 55% of the bill.

The lotto funding is grants. grants are public money.
Every sports organisation in the country gets lotto grants. The lottery is there to generate funds for sports and community projects.

The rest of your post is financial semantics trying to justify taxpayers money funding the GAA.

what are you on about? As usual you make a non-sensical post, utter tripe.

the gaa were placed in the situation where if they maintained their original decision to keep the stadium for GAA sports only it would have been a massive PR disaster. Imagine what the mood in the country would be like if Ireland had to play France in Old Trafford or Anfield. The Evening Herald and Irish Independent would carry photographs of the Irish team training in an English venue juxtaposed with an image of an empty Croke Park. Many GAA members felt that maintaining the status quo would have been in the organisations best interest but were held to ransom mainly because they accepted "tax payers money".

[WeAreRovers]

what are you on about? As usual you make a non-sensical post, utter tripe

Been taking put-down lessons from dcfcsteve? Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it non-sensical (sic).

Simplified version - The media in this country are massively biased towards the GAA. The government, taxpayer, lotto-player etc paid for Croke Park, no matter what way GAA apologists dress it up.

KOH

[G-Man]

Been taking put-down lessons from dcfcsteve? Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it non-sensical (sic).

Simplified version - The media in this country are massively biased towards the GAA. The government, taxpayer, lotto-player etc paid for Croke Park, no matter what way GAA apologists dress it up.

KOH

They got 42% of it from grants/lotto money. That hardly equates to being paid for. Lansdowne is getting 55% of its stadium paid for.

[pete]

They got 42% of it from grants/lotto money. That hardly equates to being paid for. Lansdowne is getting 55% of its stadium paid for.

Lansdowne is being shared between 2 sports organisations so its 28% each.

[Macy]

Eircom Park was scuppered internally by the FAI. Bernard Byrne, correct me if that's not his name, came up with a potentially disastrous plan to build a home for Irish Soccer. It was based on holding 60 sell out events in the stadium per year. This was also at a time when Croke Park was being rebuilt and Bertie had put forward proposals for a national stadium in Abbotstown. A power struggle in the FAI ensued, Byrne was removed from office, Bertie paid the FAI a nice sweetener to run with the Bertie Bowl and Eircom Park never came into existence. Why would they receive money to build Eircom Park when a single sod was never turned.

Eircom Park was scuppered by the Government refusing to allocate any funds. It was that Government decision that lead to O'Byrne trying to justify it through the other events, advance sales etc, while at the same time the Government were offering bribes to go into Abbotstown. This created the power struggle. Why would the FAI turn a sod when the Government said they wouldn't allocate any funding, which made the project financially unviable (just as Croke Park would've been financially unviable without Government support and allocation of funds)

I'm pleased you finally accept that the GAA recieved €110 million of public money for the redevelopment of Croke Park - a figure that would be more in todays terms, and would've gone a lot further then given the construction inflation in the last few years.

Why are you even on a football forum?

[G-Man]

Lansdowne is being shared between 2 sports organisations so its 28% each.

Why is only half of the stadium being built? Its one stadium, its getting 55% funded. If you want to go down that road then they are getting 28% of 50%, still equates to 55% funding.

Why do people have such a gripe over the funding the GAA got? Throwing out outragious and false figures of tax money and saying that they paid for the stadium. The government funds a lot of things in the country. There's a primary school being built beside me, most of it government funded by tax. Should I go in and say I can use their facilities coz I paid tax?

Fact is that the GAA handled their redevelopment of their stadium better than IRFU or FAI. The stadium never closed while development took place and will work out considerably cheaper than the Lansdowne redevelopment (taking into account inflation) even tho Croke Park will also be considerably larger.