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View Poll Results: Will Shels start the new season?

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  • Yes

    67 67.68%
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Thread: Shelbourne FC Demoted to First Division - All Purpose Thread

  1. #521
    International Prospect mypost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoops1
    One lad is trying to organise a night to get ideas, some lads cant go because they are going to watch the Dubs. Another Cant go because he is going out with his girlfriend
    Plenty of time to go out with pinky next week, and many other weeks, after Shels have gone. Pinky should understand, that footie always comes first.

    No wonder why Shels are sunk.
    Last edited by mypost; 03/02/2007 at 1:04 AM.

  2. #522
    Banned dcfcsteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheridan View Post
    Gareth, you made two errors in instigating this thread. One was in confusing mob consensus among internet users (who'll often parrot the prevailing opinion among more vocal members because they can't be bothered to think for themselves) with popular sentiment in the real world, the other was in starting the thread at all. By doing so, you're just inviting contributions of the grandstanding, posturing variety witnessed in this thread to date, mostly authored by hardcore wannabes desperately attempting to catch the eye of their "superiors" (and it at least one instance, a pathetic wannabe trying to impress fans of another club.)

    I'm not especially well-disposed towards Shels, but nor am I shortsighted enough to suppose that they were the first club to buy titles with money they didn't have, to ride roughshod over other clubs on their journey to the top, or to behave with insufferable arrogance once they got there. One need cast one's mind back barely twenty years for the canonical example.

    Indeed, seductive though the myth of a self-sustaining football club spreadsheeting its way to success undoubtedly is, the fact remains that, when an Irish club eventually makes it to the promised land, it will be an Ollie-like figure who leads them there. Ollie's most grievous errors were tactical rather than strategic. He gambled all-in from the first deal to the last and threw too much good money after bad, largely because of the absence of a credible dissenting voice. But he wasn't the first to do that, and God knows he won't be the last. I'm certainly not going to cast any stones his way, and I hope Shels recover from his depredations.
    I cut and pasted all of this into Babelfish, and it still didn't make any sense.

    Has anyone got the URL for that Jive translator......?

  3. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheridan View Post
    the fact remains that, when an Irish club eventually makes it to the promised land, it will be an Ollie-like figure who leads them there
    Wrong. The last Ollie-like figure gave you an utterly useless club for a few years, before admitting that it was doomed to failure. I hope you enjoyed this pointless exercise.

    Success will come to clubs with the right combination of patience, diligence and cop-on. Maybe Derry or Cork. Possibly eventually Rovers.

    Ollie-like figures have no place in Irish football. It's not roulette for God's sake - it's football.

  4. #524
    Seasoned Pro BohsPartisan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoop View Post
    Maybe Derry or Cork. Possibly eventually Rovers.
    Deliberate ommission of the obvious???
    TO TELL THE TRUTH IS REVOLUTIONARY

    The ONLY foot.ie user with a type of logic named after them!

    All of this has happened before. All of it will happen again.

  5. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohsPartisan View Post
    Deliberate ommission of the obvious???
    Well if you want to sell your ground to buy success - fire ahead. Shels have shown how it's done.

  6. #526
    Seasoned Pro BohsPartisan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khoop View Post
    Well if you want to sell your ground to buy success - fire ahead. Shels have shown how it's done.
    Not the same thing Khoop and you know it.

    J€ALOU$?
    TO TELL THE TRUTH IS REVOLUTIONARY

    The ONLY foot.ie user with a type of logic named after them!

    All of this has happened before. All of it will happen again.

  7. #527
    Seasoned Pro holidaysong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Student Mullet View Post
    True,
    Cork were a shoe in for their group. Now I've probably thrown a tenner away on them.
    Yeah it's €20 in my case. Damn St. Pat's!
    www.dundalkfc.com

    Colin Scanlon - hero!

  8. #528
    First Team Jerry The Saint's Avatar
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    I think it's entirely appropriate that an impassioned plea from a Shels fan to show a bit of sympathy has descended into a sordid display of Interweb filth!

    My view is that non-Shels fans (apart from Pats and to a lesser extent Bohs) seem to be slightly more upset about the demise of Shelbourne than that of Home Farm and Dublin City. The only club that people would possibly be happier to see leave the league (if they were forced to choose) might be UCD (although the IAG process has ironically generated a lot of goodwill for the way the club is run). Monaghan have had their critics and Kildare doesn't seem to have caught on too well but I would say they both deserve a place in the league. Should we do a poll?
    SIGNATURESCOPE

  9. #529
    Coach Poor Student's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry The Saint View Post
    The only club that people would possibly be happier to see leave the league (if they were forced to choose) might be UCD
    Jaysus, Jerry, don't get the UCD fans started.

  10. #530
    Reserves Mental Man's Avatar
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    Just had Paul Lennon (The Star) on Terrace talk on local radio here within the past hour and from what he has heard he is sure that Shels will be playing 1st division football next year, he thinks that FAI is gonna sanction shels heavily, he personally cannot see them in the premiere division this year !!!!

  11. #531
    Reserves steno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry The Saint View Post
    My view is that non-Shels fans (apart from Pats and to a lesser extent Bohs) seem to be slightly more upset about the demise of Shelbourne than that of Home Farm and Dublin City. The only club that people would possibly be happier to see leave the league (if they were forced to choose) might be UCD (although the IAG process has ironically generated a lot of goodwill for the way the club is run). Monaghan have had their critics and Kildare doesn't seem to have caught on too well but I would say they both deserve a place in the league. Should we do a poll?
    Well we have only been in existence four/five years but the whole concept hasn't caught on as well as many County fans would have hoped. Bit of success and you never know.
    Thanks for the compliment though. Every league has it small clubs this should be no different.
    Everyone needs something to believe in, I believe I'll have another beer.

  12. #532
    First Team Gareth's Avatar
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    My Shels commitment questioned cos I didn't go to a p1ss up? Hahahaha what are ya like!
    For all your League of Ireland news - www.extratime.ie

  13. #533
    International Prospect mypost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth
    My Shels commitment questioned cos I didn't go to a p1ss up? Hahahaha what are ya like!
    Yes. We'll be the ones laughing soon, when you don't have a club to support.
    NL 1st Division Champions 2006
    NL Premier Division Champions 2010
    NL Premier Division Champions 2011

    Keep Tallaght Tidy, Throw your rubbish in the Jodi

    Ten Years Not Out

  14. #534
    First Team Gareth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mypost View Post
    Yes. We'll be the ones laughing soon, when you don't have a club to support.
    Oh how we will all laugh. It will be great wont it. Deadly.
    For all your League of Ireland news - www.extratime.ie

  15. #535
    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
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    Excellent piece by Emmet Malone in the Times today outlines the extent of the problems at Shels:

    Going Under?

    National League champions Shelbourne have been shipping water for some time and are in danger of sinking as chief executive Ollie Byrne battles illness.

    SOCCER: Emmet Malone examines how Ireland's most successful club in recent times have suddenly come to be on the brink of extinction

    The old Bill Shankly line about football not being a matter of life and death, "it's more important than that", rarely rang more hollow than it did this week as Shelbourne's owner and chief executive, Ollie Byrne, lay battling serious illness and his club struggled for survival.

    The club's future remains in the balance with interim chairman Finbarr Flood putting their chances at 50-50, but no one when asked to consider their fate yesterday could do so without acknowledging the sad context in which the situation has unfolded.

    The full extent to which the Byrne and Shelbourne had become intertwined has been starkly underlined this week as others sought to untangle the club's affairs in Byrne's absence. Speaking on RTÉ radio on Wednesday evening, Flood was asked about some aspect of the deal to sell Tolka Park to Coneforth Trading, the company owned by Ossie Kilkenny, Ivano Cafolla and Jerry O'Reilly, who agreed back in 2003 a price to purchase the ground whenever Shelbourne move on.

    "I don't want to go into it, mainly because I don't understand all of it, I'd need Ollie here to explain it fully," replied the former Guinness chief executive and chairman of the Labour Court.

    Byrne may not be universally liked within the game or particularly admired outside of it. Indeed, after years of what might kindly be described as a robust approach to championing Shelbourne's cause, he is now carrying the can for the crisis in which the club to whom he has devoted so much of his adult life to find themselves

    Still there is a good deal of residual affection out there for the 65-year-old Dubliner. Many who know him well believe he is being harshly judged for what is happening at Tolka Park, and nobody who has had any dealings with him would make the mistake of taking him for a fool.

    "What Ollie has been is ambitious, and it's very hard to knock that in a person, at least until afterwards when they haven't pulled off what they were hoping to," says former Shelbourne chairman Gary Brown.

    "The fact is that he wanted to do something that nobody else here was even talking about until he tried it, and it seemed like the club was almost there a couple of times. The problem is that football is one of those sports where people often allow their hearts to rule their heads and Ollie has been as guilty of that as anybody."

    On the pitch Shelbourne have been hugely successful in Irish terms over the past decade. The problem is that the club have managed to demonstrate just how little money there is in being successful here. He felt the sale of the ground for development would allow the club to establish a far more effective business model, just as Bohemians now intend to do with the money obtained for Dalymount Park.

    Crucially in Shelbourne's case, however, the offer of the site in Finglas to which the club intended to move was withdrawn by the local authority after objections from local residents turned it into an election issue and previously supportive public representatives had a change of heart. Byrne had made the critical error of not indexing the purchase price, and so, while he and his colleagues searched for a new home against a background of soaring property prices, the capital sum that would be realised started to decline significantly in real terms.

    At the same time, he was gambling hugely on success in Europe with qualification for the group stages of the Champions League viewed as pretty much the only way really serious revenues could be generated by an Irish club. Expenditure dramatically outstripped income - by 100 per cent, or roughly €1.3 million in recent years - and Byrne set out to make up the shortfall by drawing down funds from Coneforth against the purchase price.

    This was roughly €25 million gross or, after a number of significant issues such as capital gains tax and the repayment of capital grants was dealt with, somewhere in region of €17 million.

    The difficulty was that, as his relationship with Kilkenny declined, so the advances became harder to obtain, and after that he started to get the money pretty much from wherever he could.

    "Ollie had a business model all right," insists former director and current management committee member Colm Murphy. "It may not have been the sort of one they teach in business schools, but there was a logic to what he did which was to invest in the club to achieve something specific and to do it by depreciating the value of the ground.

    "The problem was that the outgoings exceeded the income by more than expected, and he then found it impossible to get more money from the person who was buying the ground, so he then borrowed from outside sources to make up the shortfall and those sources were us - everybody he knew.

    "But," he asks, "who is standing at the door of Tolka Park threatening to send Shelbourne under? Nobody, because Ollie never borrowed money from anybody without telling them they would get their money back when the ground was sold, and while people are obviously concerned now, really they never stopped believing that."

    Not everybody within the game accepts that, and it is often difficult to separate fact from fiction when dealing with the Shelbourne story. What is beyond doubt, however, is that when his back was to the wall Byrne was often unorthodox in his approach, with incidents such as the club's players being paid at one stage in Northern sterling prompting inevitable speculation among rivals.

    The players happily lodged the cash and everybody associated with the club dismisses any suggestion of wrongdoing, but those stories, combined with Byrne's often aggressive style and the amount the club spent on achieving success, have combined to limit the amount of sympathy available from some quarters.

    The wage bill last year was some €38,000 per week, but Shelbourne consistently had trouble meeting it, prompting anger on the part of those who felt the club were buying titles with money they didn't have.
    Last edited by Mr A; 03/02/2007 at 5:42 PM.
    #NeverStopNotGivingUp

  16. #536
    Like the Fonz. Only a dog. Mr A's Avatar
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    More of same:

    Around €6.5 million has now been advanced by Kilkenny and his associates, while a further €4 million to €5 million is owed to various creditors, including a significant number of individuals who advanced low, six-figure sums over a period of years often on the basis that Byrne would provide access to tickets for international and big Premiership games while the money was outstanding. In recent months, though, even these sources largely dried up.

    Those involved in the playing side of the operation lamented the club's inability to generate larger gates or significant sponsorships, but as Alan Mathews, a former assistant manager at Tolka now in charge of Longford observes, "Ollie ran that club from top to bottom. He achieved standards that other clubs only aspired to, but the infrastructure required to sustain the whole thing was never put in place. People who know Ollie would know that that's his modus operandi. I think Ollie would admit it himself."

    Like many who have been involved with the club in recent years Tony McCarthy, a former player and now the first team's physiotherapist, feels that Byrne's main offence is to have reached for the stars and to have come up short. "I think everybody agrees that he tried to raise the bar and he should get credit for that," he says.

    That failure, however, has left problems that were described in an understated way by Flood this week as "quite complex".

    Still, there is hope around the place, combined with an acceptance that the level of ambition displayed in the immediate future will have to be drastically scaled back.

    "The most important thing for supporters now is that we have a club, whether they are challenging for honours, playing outside our ground or whatever else. People are desperate to see them survive," says Niall Fitzmaurice, a leading member of the Shelbourne Supporters Development Group.

    The most immediate challenge, though, comes over the next couple of days, as Murphy readily admits. "Obviously if we can't persuade the licensing people that we can pay off the Revenue and the players within a matter of days, and that we can trade through the coming season, then there's no basis for them to give us our licence. But if we can do that then there's no reason for them to change the decision they made last year. But if we do survive," he says, "then the process of rebuilding our credibility while working off a different business plan will begin."

    On the Shelbourne website last night the club history page was offline for "updating". After 112 years, we can only hope the time hasn't arrived quite yet to write the final chapter.

    No permit, no play: Club's licence could be revoked

    Members of the committee that oversees the FAI's club licensing system will meet tomorrow to consider whether, as a result of the financial crisis that has enveloped the club, Shelbourne should be stripped of the licence they were granted late last year.

    The meeting has been convened to consider a response by the club to queries put to them in a letter from the committee over the last few days. The questions relate to information supplied by Shelbourne in their licence application last October.

    There is a growing sense that the FAI would like a swift end put to an embarrassing period for the game here, and that Shelbourne will face stiff sanctions or even expulsion from the reconstituted League of Ireland, the board of which met for the first time yesterday.

    Members of the club's management committee insist, however, that the information supplied last autumn was correct and that the issues raised now by the committee can be properly addressed.

    "We have made no secret of the losses being incurred," says Colm Murphy. "The management accounts sent to the licensing people showed a seven-figure loss for the year and debts of 4 million (this figure excludes the 6.5 million advanced by Ossie Kilkenny and his business partners against the price to be paid at a future date for Tolka Park) were indicated."

    Finbarr Flood, meanwhile, observed: "We've been asked a number of questions which we will answer. After that it's a matter for the members of the committee to consider.

    "All we can do," he added, "is hope that they make a decision quickly and that they allow us to get on with the business of addressing the problems that exist within the club. We're keenly aware that we need to put in place a financial package and work on that is still ongoing."

    Ollie Byrne, meanwhile, issued a statement from Beaumont hospital yesterday thanking the many people who had sent him good wishes and stating he believed the club was in good hands. The Dubliner underwent surgery earlier this week and will have further treatment in the weeks ahead.
    #NeverStopNotGivingUp

  17. #537
    Now with extra sauce! Dodge's Avatar
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    KNew you'd come round to our thinking Gareth
    54,321 sold - wws will never die - ***
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    New blog if anyone's interested - http://loihistory.wordpress.com/
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  18. #538
    Youth Team forza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth View Post
    Oh how we will all laugh. It will be great wont it. Deadly.
    POTM
    Theres a prize for bringing the most fans you know

  19. #539
    Seasoned Pro Raheny Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohs til i die View Post

    Just produce your 2006 Shels season ticket when purchasing a season ticket for Bohs.
    Any Gypo wanna buy Shels 2006 season ticket?




    Who Cares?!

  20. #540
    Seasoned Pro Raheny Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A face View Post
    Lads, i missed it ... can you give a run down of what happened. Who was on the panel. Who spoke from the crowd? What topics were covered?

    Will it be online ??
    I have it saved, I'll see what I can do

    EDIT: just seen it's online!
    Last edited by Raheny Red; 03/02/2007 at 7:46 PM.
    Who Cares?!

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