Trade Union Discussion

[pete]

Do you see anything wrong with those demands?
What is wrong with workers wanting direct employment? With them wanting to pay PAYE and PRSI so they can have their full social welfare entitlements when they are laid off, as happens from time to time in the building industry?

We demand:

- BATU members should establish an organising committee to co-ordinate the struggle to free the three jailed bricklayers. Fair enough, nothing illegal there.

- Pickets to be placed on all Collen Construction sites – shut them down until the High Court injunction is lifted and the three workers are freed. Illegal & should be jailed it started again

- For a campaign of action to force the replacement of the sub-contractors with trade union labour Protectionist Racket worthy of the Mafia

- For a united campaign by all construction unions to recruit non-union Irish and migrant building workers. Fight the "race to the bottom". No one forces workers to be contractors, I would assume most choose to do so as get paid more the faster/better they work. Ever heard of Democracy?

The Trade Union movement will remain marginalised if it fails to back rouge militant unions. It it the one single thing that p!sses me off.

[BohsPartisan]

The Trade Union movement will remain marginalised if it fails to back rouge militant unions. It it the one single thing that p!sses me off.

Don't assume. Many do it because they have no option. Those who want to do it set the standard and drive that standard down for honest workers.
As I've said before the legality or illegality of the protest doesn't concern me. If the protest is justified, it is justified regardless of what the law says.

- For a campaign of action to force the replacement of the sub-contractors with trade union labour Protectionist Racket worthy of the Mafia

Only the Mafia would be for a a campaign of action to force the replacement of the trade-union with sub-contractors. In fact that is what the building Mafia in this country along with their buddies in Fianna Fail have been doing for years.

[pete]

If the protest is justified, it is justified regardless of what the law says.

I think we back to Rossport Five here. Protests are fine (some of the most relaxed laws anywhere in this country) but illegal protests (deemed illegal by Independent Judiciary) are not.

[BohsPartisan]

Illegal laws?

[rebs23]

Bohspartisan please deal with the issues.
[MOD EDIT: Deleted at the request of the poster]
Is it ok to ask contractors to fire people because are not union members and do not want to join a union?
Is it Ok to ask contractors to fire people who want to work on a c2 or c45 basis? (much more tax efficient for those on big money such as brickies)
Is it ok to organise mobs to picket a site without ever going to any third party on the issue?
Is it OK to launch a Court Case against the REA, the legally binding agreement that prevents the race to the bottom in construction?
Is it ok not to give union cards to people on the basis of their county of origin or their nationality?
[MOD EDIT: Deleted at the request of the poster]

You and I know the real reason BATU launched their campaign for direct employment is because their membership was declining as a result of more and more of their members wanting to work on a sub contract basis and because some of their senior officials were militant trade unionists and members of some socialist party or other.

Put away the ideology and answer the questions. You clearly have never worked on a site in any capacity or you'd know how the other trades, other trade unions and workers feel about the brickies union.


BTW I am not anti trade union at all. I have the utmost respect for most of the trade unions. Just anti Bullies which is what BATU are.

[BohsPartisan]

Bohspartisan please deal with the issues.

[MOD EDIT: Deleted at the request of the poster]

Is it ok to ask contractors to fire people because are not union members and do not want to join a union?

Yes. Its essential to maintain the bargaining power of the unionised workforce who is the only part of the workforce the union has any obligation to.

Is it Ok to ask contractors to fire people who want to work on a c2 or c45 basis? (much more tax efficient for those on big money such as brickies)

Ditto. Their work practices hurt unionised workers therefore the union has an obligation to defend their members.

Is it ok to organise mobs to picket a site without ever going to any third party on the issue?

Its more than ok. Its a tactic that works where as third parties usually side with the employer because the law is stacked in their favour

Is it OK to launch a Court Case against the REA, the legally binding agreement that prevents the race to the bottom in construction?

I'll have to look into that one.

Is it ok not to give union cards to people on the basis of their county of origin or their nationality?

Absolutely not. You should know my opinion on that. Where and when did this happen?

[MOD EDIT: Deleted at the request of the poster]

BTW I am not anti trade union at all. I have the utmost respect for most of the trade unions. Just anti Bullies which is what BATU are.

You mean they don't bend over and let their members get shafted like some of the others?

[Macy]

Is it ok to organise mobs to picket a site without ever going to any third party on the issue?

Bohspartisan deals with most, but you are aware that it takes two sides to go to a third party? One normally refers the issue to a third party (rights commissioner, LRC and then Labour Court) and then they invite both sides in. Or are you claiming that the union in question was called in for third party talks and refused?

[pete]

Illegal laws?

Apologies, Edited now...

Q - Is it ok to ask contractors to fire people because are not union members and do not want to join a union?
A - Yes. Its essential to maintain the bargaining power of the unionised workforce who is the only part of the workforce the union has any obligation to.

I know you defend Socialism as different that Communism but hard to see the difference with such an answer...

[BohsPartisan]

I know you defend Socialism as different that Communism but hard to see the difference with such an answer...

That doesn't make sense Pete. I'm for workers democracy. The union movement at its best is democratic (undfortunately not usually the case in Ireland) and when a decision is made by the union membership it should be acted on.

SOME RELATED ARTICLES
23 killed on sites in 2005

UCD Collen site picket

Ballybrack 3 campaign

Refusal to employ union members

What Reb23 refered to?

BATU president condemns attack on office of union
By PADRAIG YEATES, Industry and Employment Correspondent

Irish Times Oct 27, 1998


The president of the Building and Allied Trades Union (BATU), Mr Mick McNally, has condemned the attack on the offices of the Plasterers' Union on Friday, when files were thrown into the street and set on fire.


The incident occurred shortly after two building workers were released from prison for defying a High Court order and for unofficially picketing a building site in Ballsbridge, Dublin.

And, on the REA:
Irish Times, Feb 15 1999

BATU says the agreement, which has set legally binding terms and conditions of employment for 50,000 building workers since the 1960s, is outdated. In particular, the union is angry at delays in dealing with grievances that arise on building sites.

"We require progressive industrial relations machinery that can help keep pace with the highly mobile industry of today," said the general secretary of BATU, Mr Paddy O'Shaughnessy. "No more is BATU prepared to tolerate employers hiding behind the agreement, frustrating settlements at every turn and then, having used the industrial relations machinery as a shield, heading for the High Court to frustrate the process even further."

Mr Shaughnessy called for a "fast-track" approach to settling disputes. He pointed out that building projects that once took years to complete are now finished within weeks, before the machinery for resolving grievances has started to operate.

[NY Hoop]

Jaysis bohspartisan I'd say you're one of those headers in the CPSU.

"I don't answer vagueries. Who, why, where?"

How about answering the original question?

If you dont like unions dont join them.

KOH

[rebs23]

Bohspartisan deals with most, but you are aware that it takes two sides to go to a third party? Or are you claiming that the union in question was called in for third party talks and refused?

IR procedures in the construction industry are legally binding on all sides and which BATU have refused to use, which is why they are up in the High Court every second month.

[BohsPartisan]

Jaysis bohspartisan I'd say you're one of those headers in the CPSU.

I'm in the PSEU. Unfortunately.

Why do I join a union if I don't like them? Why did you support Rovers at the same time you didn't like the people who ran the club?

[NY Hoop]

I'm in the PSEU. Unfortunately.

Why do I join a union if I don't like them? Why did you support Rovers at the same time you didn't like the people who ran the club?

PSEU? Christ I thought you were a service officer.

I meant generally if people dont like unions dont join them. You say unfortunately you are in the PSEU. Why not leave then?

Comparing it to following Rovers is stupid. When I started following the club Yoggi Bear could have ran it for all I knew!

KOH

[BohsPartisan]

I meant generally if people dont like unions dont join them. You say unfortunately you are in the PSEU. Why not leave then?

Just because I don't like how its run doesn't mean I won't try to change it and doesn't mean there are some benefits. The PSEU has sold us up the river on a lot of things but if we didn't have a union things'd be worse.

I'm an EO by the way.

[NY Hoop]

Just because I don't like how its run doesn't mean I won't try to change it and doesn't mean there are some benefits. The PSEU has sold us up the river on a lot of things but if we didn't have a union things'd be worse.

I'm an EO by the way.

That's the standard line. Without us you'd be fcuked. Sounds like you have a cushy number where you are on the 5th floor.

KOH

[rebs23]

Thanks for answering the questions. I'll let people make up their own minds on the answers.
As for liblelous comments.......there are sworn testimonials lodged in the High Court. There have been numerous reports detailing these incidents and no one has been sued. Why is that?

[rebs23]

SOME RELATED ARTICLES
23 killed on sites in 2005

UCD Collen site picket

Ballybrack 3 campaign

Refusal to employ union members

What Reb23 refered to?


And, on the REA:
Irish Times, Feb 15 1999

As I have said before the Court Action brought by BATU against the REA resulted in a situation whereby GAMA could legally pay below the agreed rates in this country and then they go and lecture us about stopping the race to the bottom. Hypocrites.

As for the attack on OPATSI, ask anyone in the Plasterers union whether they accept the aplogies of BATU. It is just another incident in a long running series of incidents.
As for the quotes from Indymedia, absolute rubbish, the Collen dispute was again another attempt by BATU to get brickies who do not want to join the union sacked.

Thats it for me in this debate, getting too close to the bone, especially when you have witnessed things yourself first hand.
Most unions are there to represent their members and take cases etc, no problem with that. BATU are bullies that try to imtimidate people sometimes physically, anyone denying it happened or happens doesn't know what they are talking about.

[BohsPartisan]

TSounds like you have a cushy number where you are on the 5th floor.

KOH

Yeah right.
Like to make yourself known to me? Hardly fair you know who I am.

[kingdom hoop]

Whats the greater good? More profit for the few, less pay for the many, poorer working conditions for the many, poorer terms of employment for the many?

my post was a general poser not a belief. but, the 'greater good' is a pretty difficult and slightly subjective concept. jeremy bentham was fond of utilitarianism, and summed it up something like the more happiness for the more people the better. his followers use whats known as the felicific calculus to decipher what the 'greater good' truly is
but there's no use being a smartass unless you can provide a solution..so...

bohs, you say

Its essential to maintain the bargaining power of the unionised workforce who is the only part of the workforce the union has any obligation to.

to me that reads like 'we need unions to halt capitalism'. if a person doesnt want union representation he should be free to decide so himself, not to be told that we need you(as a number not a person) on our side so that we can fight our battles.

[rebs23]

Both myself and Bohspartisan already have linked here;
This article makes reference to the Collen Construction case and the claims lodged in the High Court;
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer...y651922727.asp
This quote from the Irish Times deals with the OPATSI incident when members of BATU thrashed the offices of OPATSI and burned their documents

What Reb23 refered to?

Quote:
BATU president condemns attack on office of union
By PADRAIG YEATES, Industry and Employment Correspondent

Irish Times Oct 27, 1998


The president of the Building and Allied Trades Union (BATU), Mr Mick McNally, has condemned the attack on the offices of the Plasterers' Union on Friday, when files were thrown into the street and set on fire.


The incident occurred shortly after two building workers were released from prison for defying a High Court order and for unofficially picketing a building site in Ballsbridge, Dublin.