Dermot Ahern's comments on an all Ireland side

[lopez]

Since when were Finchley or Surrey in NI?...

Well spotted!

Personally I'd like to see the British remove all their irredentist simbols of Ireland. You can begin with the Sh*gger's cross on the Butcher's Apron, the German Lady's flag, and last but certainly least, that surrounding your football team. Play in Blue, black or Pink for all I care.

There are people in Spain, such as the Catalans, Basques, Galicians etc, who do not, to varying degrees, identify with the Spanish state and by extension, the Spanish National football team. Indeed, the desire for autonomy or independence etc is replicated similarly in many other countries around the world.

I do not hear you, or more importantly, FIFA, demanding that the respective FA's modify their flags, anthems, symbolism etc so as to incorporate disaffected minorities, so why do you demand this for NI?...

An ironic choice from you EG? The Spanish coat of arms of which are still worn on the Spanish shirt has the yellow and red stripes representing the Catalans and the Chains of Navarra representing the Basques.

[liaml]

Blue, black or Pink for all I care.

Orange surely?

[Noelys Guitar]

I started this thread. The IFA is possibly worse than the FAI. The current FAI ie Delaney, Blood have made so many poor decisions in the recent past that they are finished. The IFA and their "fans" are happy with their lot and god bless them! I've changed my mind about an all Ireland team. It clearly would'nt work at the moment. We will kick out Delaney and Stan eventually but NI will be worse off than ever. Drinking beside some England fans watching their game on Wednesday (all Geordies)and they really love NI! Will someone please break it gently to the good folk of NI exactly what the "mainland" really thinks of them.

[liaml]

I agree. People want to see the FAI disbanded, most fans would've loved to see the IFA taking control. However - the whole Gibson affairs has been an absolute PR disaster for the IFA. Nationalists have never felt more alienated and what credibility the IFA had with the community is gone. To think that they've got as many buffons running their game as we do ours...

Ah well

[lopez]

Orange surely?

Too Irish!

[Not Brazil]

The IFA and their "fans" are happy with their lot and god bless them! I've changed my mind about an all Ireland team. It clearly would'nt work at the moment. .

Nationalists from Northern Ireland who wish to declare for the Republic = No problem

Nationalists from Northern Ireland who wish to play for Northern Ireland = No problem

Future autonomy of Northern Ireland representative teams = Copper fastened.

Everyone's a winner.

[liaml]

Nationalists from Northern Ireland who wish to declare for the Republic = No problem

Good to see that at least some NI fans talk sense. It's a pity the IFA doesn't have the same attitude.

[Not Brazil]

Good to see that at least some NI fans talk sense. It's a pity the IFA doesn't have the same attitude.

They were barking up the wrong tree with Gibson.

My view is very straightforward.

If a player does not want to play for Northern Ireland, I don't want him playing for Northern Ireland.

Nor would I seek to stop that player playing for the Republic, thus denying him an international career.

I'm just delighted that this whole episode has strenthened the future autonomy of the IFA and Northern Ireland representative sides.

I think Northern nationalists can also be rightly happy too - they can support a team which includes players from their neck of the woods.

Win, win situation, except for those who insist there should be an All Ireland team - that notion is now buried.

The ROI will have a de facto "All Ireland" team, and we Northern Ireland fans will still have our team to support.

I like happy endings.

[lopez]

They were barking up the wrong tree with Gibson.

My view is very straightforward.

If a player does not want to play for Northern Ireland, I don't want him playing for Northern Ireland.

Nor would I seek to stop that player playing for the Republic, thus denying him an international career.

I'm just delighted that this whole episode has strenthened the future autonomy of the IFA and Northern Ireland representative sides.

I think Northern nationalists can also be rightly happy too - they can support a team which includes players from their neck of the woods.

Win, win situation, except for those who insist there should be an All Ireland team - that notion is now buried.

The ROI will have a de facto "All Ireland" team, and we Northern Ireland fans will still have our team to support.

I like happy endings.

Sensible approach to this issue. I've never been a fan of the recent FIFA changes that allows youth players to hop from one association to another, but FIFA make the rules regarding playing internationals and we can only argue on forums like these.

As for the autonomy of the NI team, it's guaranteed until re-unification and probably further. I doubt you'll see the destruction of the NI team with unification, but I can see a depleted one, with regards to player quality based on the clubs they play for, money they cost, money they earn, cups won, etc. Players are like the rest of us, ambitious and few would settle for a regional team as opposed to a national one, given the choice. However, as events proved on Wednesday, you can still be weaker than the sum of your equals.

[Not Brazil]

As for the autonomy of the NI team, it's guaranteed until re-unification and probably further. I doubt you'll see the destruction of the NI team with unification, but I can see a depleted one, with regards to player quality based on the clubs they play for, money they cost, money they earn, cups won, etc. Players are like the rest of us, ambitious and few would settle for a regional team as opposed to a national one, given the choice..

That depends on the ability of the player, to a large extent.

The best "unionist" talent will always declare for Northern Ireland.

The best of "nationalist" talent will declare for the Irish republic.

Many nationalist kids will stick with Northern Ireland on the sole basis that it will represent their best opportunity to play on the international stage.

I think of the "nationalist" players in the current Northern ireland senior squad, and I cannot think of any who would be in an Irish Republic Squad.

This is a watershed, and one, upon reflection, that I am entirely comfortable with.

It will also take a lot of tension out of some important debates that face the Northern Ireland fanbase in the coming months and years.

A single "Ireland" team doesn't work.

This is a fair compromise that allows our different senses of identity to be respected and upheld.

[Paddy Garcia]

Good to see that at least some NI fans talk sense.

Second that - what a relief to hear a reasonable voice after all that other ranting.

[lopez]

That depends on the ability of the player, to a large extent.

The best "unionist" talent will always declare for Northern Ireland.

The best of "nationalist" talent will declare for the Irish republic...

I was talking about post - unification which is may never happen. In such a case, I'd put money that the best unionist talent WILL opt for the 'national' team, unless they are so politically minded that they would find it abhorrent to do so. Even then, they may hold out for an England cap. I'm not taking the p*ss here with you. I've seen plenty of England shirts in Belfast to suggest that the 'gloryhunters' on the Unionist side are not content with the lowly ambitions of the NI team (last visit was in 2003, although I'm over again on Monday, so I'll look out to see if things might have changed). George Best would have played for an all-Ireland team, and has stated so. Derek Dougan would have played for an all-Ireland team, and actively encouraged one. Both from unionist East Belfast. How many Ulster rugby players have refused to stand for the Soldiers Song? Come to think of it, how many Nationalist rugby players have turned down a six week jolly down - under with the Lions?

If Spain is an example of a multi - ethnic state with autonomous teams and one state team, there still seems a lot of Catalans, Basques who play for them. I've only heard one player who has ever turned down the chance of playing for Spain, and he was a Galician.

It proves that footballers have no scruples and think only of the shekels. That's why I like it when a Northern nationalist with not much talent at least puts his own views on identity, ethnicity and YES politics first. You never know, the man might think that owning a 4X4 might not be great for the planet.

[EalingGreen]

now lets revert to the original point of the thread 'an All Ireland team' and
lets, like you have already done, use spain as our comparison.

spain: one large majority (those who associate with being spanish) and the minority (those who do not associate with all things spanish) the catalans, basques...etc. a 'hypotetical' united ireland team would represent the entire island where one community would vastly outnumber the other i.e. those who see themselves as irish with a massive majority over those who see themselves as british. so by your arguement there would be no need for the tricolour or anthem to be modified to represent the disenting minority!!

never would have thought of spain so thanks for that ealing!



BTW i didn't 'demand' the removal of symbolism of unionism in relation to NI but merely stated that it is unfair to have one community represented and not the other. espically with one community representing c.53% and the other c.44%. hardly comparable with spain i would think parity of esteem for both communities. what i suggested (pasted below for ease of reference) was that it would be a fairer situation if both had their own communities represented (symbolism and anthems) or else new symbolism which represents both equally.

as posted above:
....it would need cross-community symbolism (incl. flags) and anthems - although it could alternatively play neither anthem and go with 'Danny Boy' or some other song which would unite the people as opposed to divide them. ...

PS - your attempts at spin are becoming tedious and your arguements are getting weaker and weaker. the spanish comparison is verging on the ridiculous

Your attempt to adopt the Spanish example for your own purpose is fundamentally flawed. Spain is a country with a number of alienated minorities, yet you do not demand that they in some way "dilute" their "Spanishness" and/or incorporate some Basque/Catalan/Galician into the team.
The same circumstances apply to NI - an alienated minority etc.

Whereas, your proposed "hypothetical United Ireland team" is not at all analagous, since it requires the merging of two separate countries entirely. Spain may have several regions, but it's still one country

The correct analogy for your "United Ireland team" would be a "United Iberian team" i.e. Spain and Portugal merged. But FIFA would never consider this, nor should it of course, even though the disaffected (Portugese) minority would only be 5% of the whole.

Still, I guess your adoption of the Spanish/Iberian example to try to prove your case is a small advance on the South African one, which I assume you have now dropped completely.

As for your "parity of symbolism", on the "Unionist" side, this can only refer to the Anthem and the Flag. I have said quite clearly that I think that GSTQ should be replaced. The flag is different (imo), since I know of no other NI flag that might suitably replace the present one, though I would not be averse to its being substituted in principle.
Other than that, the only symbolism or imagery I can see is to be found in the team colour - emerald green, and the badge - Celtic Cross with shamrocks. If anything, both of these strike might be expected to strike more of a chord with Nationalists than Unionists.
Unless, of course, you know of other symbols or images which I'm unaware of?

But it's all academic as far as I'm concerned, since I do not accept the basic premise of your argument i.e. the contrivance of a balance of symbolism between "Unionism" and "Nationalism".
This is because football in NI, and especially with representative teams, should not be reduced to a question of political allegiance - quite thje contrary, in fact.
It should be solely a geographical matter. For me, this means the international football team I support is NI, since that is the country I come from, as determined by FIFA.
By the same token, when it comes to rugby, my "patch" is Ireland, as determined by the IRB.
As such, I may have my own personal opinions on the arrangements over flags, anthems etc which accompany these teams, but so long as these are not offensive or discriminatory, I am happy to tolerate them, since they don't interfere with the "main event" i.e. the action on the pitch.

Now you may consider the above statement of my position variously to be "spin", "tedious", "weak" or even "ridiculous", but if nothing else, it has the merit of keeping politics out of sport wherever possible whereas you, by your advocacy of incorporating political symbolism, would actually entrench it.

[liaml]

I'd put money that the best unionist talent WILL opt for the 'national' team, unless they are so politically minded that they would find it abhorrent to do so. Even then, they may hold out for an England cap. If Spain is an example of a multi - ethnic state with autonomous teams and one state team, there still seems a lot of Catalans, Basques who play for them. I've only heard one player who has ever turned down the chance of playing for Spain, and he was a Galician.

Happens more than you think - Oleguer recently turned down a World cup place.

[Not Brazil]

I was talking about post - unification which is may never happen. In such a case, I'd put money that the best unionist talent WILL opt for the 'national' team, unless they are so politically minded that they would find it abhorrent to do so. Even then, they may hold out for an England cap. I'm not taking the p*ss here with you. I've seen plenty of England shirts in Belfast to suggest that the 'gloryhunters' on the Unionist side are not content with the lowly ambitions of the NI team.

In the event of re-unification, I don't take it as a given that there would be a single Irish team.

I am well aware of those in Northern Ireland that profess England as their national team of preference - DCAL did some detailed research on this a couple of years back, and I believe it was 13% of those interviewed cited England as their first choice international team. Many of these would be hardcore "loyalists" - Billy Hutchinson being a well known example.

I think, given recent advances by Northern Ireland, that that number might be a little smaller now, but there are many England fans still around.

I haven't seen as many England shirts about Belfast recently, although the amount of Northern Ireland gear on view is heartwarming.

In the event of there being no Northern Ireland team, British Citizens in "Ireland" would likely have the option to declare for either England, Wales or Scotland, in addition to "Ireland".

All pie in the sky anyway - the IFA is going to be around for many, many years to come...copper fastened by recent developments.

[EalingGreen]

1. It was not the dig at Staunton (we all do that) it was the sheer joy it generated, for you.
2. Your offensive language. I think it is the people on the receiving end and not the deliverer who determines what is offensive. No doubt you will argue otherwise.
3. Pitiful triumphant poems to celebrate Irish defeats. Very sad.

You are talking about South Africa, yet even some of their worst woke up in the end.

1. Forgive me for enjoying a laugh at the expense of your team. I trust you didn't giggle when NI were similarly awful three years back? Or won't, when/if we next suffer our own "San Marino"?

2. Please supply me an example of where I was "offensive" in my posts.

3. My poem was "celebrating" the the restoration of NI to its rightful and traditional place as the top team in Ireland. As such, that can only be done by reference to the other team in Ireland. I'm sorry* if it adds to your suffering as an ROI fan to be reminded of this.

And it was one of your compatriots (Galway Hoop?) who introduced S.A. into the debate. Personally, I don't think that example has much relevance to the issues being discussed here.

* - Actually, not that sorry. Hardly at all, in fact. Ah, balls, I'm not sorry in the slightest apart, perhaps, from the damage Stan's post-match Press Conference's are inflicting on my sides and bladder!

[lopez]

Happens more than you think - Oleguer recently turned down a World cup place.

I read MARCA every day and he wasn't picked. He was approached by Ara-cojones - Oleguer I think partook in a practice session arranged around the international calender; certainly he was pictured talking with Luis but old Luis decided to go with another defender instead for Germany. I must admit I didn't take much notice. A footballer not having the b*llocks to stand by his 'alleged' principles. Not exactly news?

TBF, he could have put enough spin on it to played for Spain. After all, Javier Clemente did the same, despite having a brother-in-law on good terms in ETA and claiming that Andalucia (or was that Spain?) was not his country when he managed Betis.

The only player I know who refused to play for Spain was Nacho of Compostela circa 1997 -1998. According to a Spanish mate, he was called up for the under 21s, and then went into a rant about wanting to play only for his country. He wasn't much cop, but my mate was infuriated by this slight. I'd previously saw Nacho being interviewed on Sky Sports Spanish footy, saying 'I want to play for my country, but it's a disgrace we haven't the same situation as the UK, etc.' I'd be interested in any others who have turned down a call.

[EalingGreen]

[I]

Personally I'd like to see the British remove all their irredentist simbols of Ireland. You can begin with the Sh*gger's cross on the Butcher's Apron, the German Lady's flag, and last but certainly least, that surrounding your football team. Play in Blue, black or Pink for all I care.

An ironic choice from you EG? The Spanish coat of arms of which are still worn on the Spanish shirt has the yellow and red stripes representing the Catalans and the Chains of Navarra representing the Basques.

Re. your first para, I have no great desire to see my football team associated with political symbols either of an "Irish" or "British" nature. I am quite happy for it to be a strictly "Norn Iron" affair. The clue is in the name: "Northern Ireland".

Re. your second para, how is the Spanish incorporation of "minority" symbols in their badge any different from the IFA's incorporation of "minority" symbols (Celtic Cross, shamrocks) in its badge?
I fail to see how your pointing them out supports your stance - quite the contrary in fact.
It seems to me to be yet another example of your confusing knowledge with understanding.

[lopez]

In the event of re-unification, I don't take it as a given that there would be a single Irish team.

I am well aware of those in Northern Ireland that profess England as their national team of preference - DCAL did some detailed research on this a couple of years back, and I believe it was 13% of those interviewed cited England as their first choice international team. Many of these would be hardcore "loyalists" - Billy Hutchinson being a well known example...

I was there for the Spain game in 2003. I saw about three Republic shirts in Belfast and one England shirt walking the other way as I walked out to WP. I'm not telling porkies when I say I didn't see one NI shirt until I got near the ground.

The research by DCAL is larger than I would have thought, but hardly surprising. BTW, how many had the 'Republic' as their first team?

[EalingGreen]

Drinking beside some England fans watching their game on Wednesday (all Geordies)and they really love NI! Will someone please break it gently to the good folk of NI exactly what the "mainland" really thinks of them.

In footballing terms, the fans of England, Scotland and Wales may think what they like of NI. I don't need their good (or bad) wishes any more than I do those e.g. of ROI, France, Botswana or Mongolia.

But thank you for your "Letter from Geordie Land"; perhaps their perceptions are ever so slightly coloured by memories of what happened to their team the last time they came to Windsor!