The pedantry about names is a sideshow. I believe the crux of the matter is that Northern Rugby supporters of a particular tradition are, if not happy, resigned to coming down to Dublin to stand under the tricolour and listen to Amhrán Na Fhian put out as "their" anthem -which it patently isn't.
Yet they stand up for it, maybe or maybe not grit their teeth and cross their fingers and when it's all over they get on with supporting the team on the field.
Many of us seem to think it's not only reasonable but downright proper that this is the case BUT then baulk at the very notion of a nationalist having to do similar at Windsor.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
Agreed. And I believe Kingdom was pointing out that if you're going to be a pedant, it would be best to be a "fair" pedant. This obviously "whooshed" over your head.Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
"Amhrán Na Fhian " is in no way an inclusive anthem. Neither is GSTQ. I'm interested in the veracity of your claims though - does anybody here feel that "Amhrán Na Fhian " or GSTQ are inclusive anthems and shouldn't be replaced?
-Liam
Not at all. I merely cut to the substantive issue ...like I said and we appear to agree -The names thing is a sideshow.
ANF/SS is an inclusive anthem for football as things stand -but hardly for Rugby. What I sometimes notice with my fellow southerners is a common lack of empathy in relation to the rugby situation AND a common expectation that in an All-Ireland football scenario the same arrangements would and should prevail.
GSTQ is not an inclusive anthem -but even if NI/IFA got rid of it for matches -those willing and wishing to knock them will find something else ...Union Jacks for example (I counted 2 at last nights match + one more union jack based banner where the normally red strips were green ...and even if all 15,000 there brought one -it's their country TOO.)
Thereafter anything with a red hand would be knit picked and so on and so on...
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
As it stands an anthem which alienates over 1 million people on this Island and is a barrier to integration cannot be seen as inclusive.
With all due respect you're living in the past Lionel. Maybe 10 years ago but things have changed. Many more would applaud moves to a more inclusive society than would knock it. And if you're going to dwell on the knockers you'll never get anywhere. Your assertion that "Amhrán Na Fhian " is an inclusive anthem, together with your bizarre obsession with counting flags at matches probably says more about your own sensibilities in this regard than you'd like.
-Liam
Last edited by liaml; 07/02/2007 at 11:53 AM.
My take on this is very simple. No united Ireland football team until we have a united Ireland and that (if ever) is a long way off. Why try to join two separate countries together into one? FIFA wouldn't allow it and nor should they.
If Ireland was one nation governed by one body then all the sh*te about national anthems, flags etc would sort itself out. Until that happens I'd rather just stick to supporting the republic and not the republic with a bit of the UK attached to it thanks very much.
Regarding the naming of the Irish National Anthem, I used the English version for one single reason: I don't speak Irish, so I have to look up how to spell it each time.
And even when I do, I get confused, since some people like Liam L and Lionel R spell it "Amhran Na Fhian" (abbreviated to ANF), whilst Kingdom Hoop spells it "Amhran na bhFiann" (ABF).
And not only that, but I don't know where the accent key is on my keyboard, so I can't add the accent (fada?) to the first bit, its absence no doubt causing another diplomatic incident!
(Plus I thought that seeing as this is an English Language site, perhaps it wasn't too much of an insult to use the English Version)
Anyhow, if you let me know which version I should use, I'll try to comply in future.
Getting back to more substantive issues, Lionel and Liam expressed my views on Anthems rather well. The Irish anthem does nothing for me in either language - indeed I slightly resent it when the IRFU plays it (twice) at Lansdowne, since it fails to acknowledge that the rugby team is made up of players from two Nationalities.
Nonetheless, I am there for the 80 minutes of rugby, not the rather tedious ceremonies which preface the proceedings, so my attitude while the music plays is "Stand Up, Shut Up, Sit Down".
I therefore think it consistent, and not unreasonable, merely to ask that football supporters at Windsor do the same, irrespective of their private, political convictions.
On which point, I would add that when it comes to GSTQ at Windsor, I am no proponent of it, either, never mind Nationalists.
As a tune, I think it an uninspiring dirge, ditto for its effect on the players. I have long wanted it replaced by a peculiarly "Norn Iron" anthem, whether Danny Boy, or something commissioned*.
But when it comes to it, I suppose I am agnostic about the whole thing, if for no other reason than that half the time, I'm still downstairs in the bogs for a last-minute draining of the bladder, so I don't even hear the bloody thing!
P.S. Why are David Humphries (and other Ulster players) sometimes the subject of comment about their not singing the Irish Anthem in Dublin?
An example was from earlier, where Kindom Hoop posted:
"...it is ANB thats bellowed (well, except for david humphreys) out at our matches"
I've never seen them to be disrespectful. Would it be better if they sang the version in their own lingua franca (English), whilst their teammates sang it in their National Language (Irish?). Or should they be forced to learn and sing the Irish version? What happens if they're tone deaf? Should they be required to mouth the words silently, for fear that President McAleese might be offended at being saluted off-key?
Curiously enough, I've never heard even the most "staunch" NI fan ever comment on the fact that half the NI football team doesn't sing GSTQ at Windsor...
* - "Ulster's Call"? Nah, maybe not!
Tbf, Hoop, you have set me thinking further on this topic. I'm now going to send of a letter of complaint to the IFA about their sinister use of symbolism and imagery which does not "represent" me as a Unionist.
First off, I dislike the fact that the team plays in green, a colour long associated with Irish Republicanism. I demand that they revert to the original "St.Patricks Blue".
Second, I don't like the IFA's Crest. That Celtic Cross is far too partisan for my liking - why even the very word "Celtic" alienates me. And whilst they're at it, they could remove those perfidious shamrocks from it, too.
And as for the IFA asking FIFA that NI players be allowed to use Irish Passports, when a British one is more than good enough for them...
Far too much appeasement of Nationalists, I say!
Indeed. And how ironic that the cause of Irish "Unity" is actually much better served by such a tolerant attitude, than by the rantings of those extreme Republicans who demand a United Ireland/Brits Out etc at the earliest opportunity.
I hope you enjoy the game against San Marino this evening, YI.
I take it YoungIrish won't be out supporting Ireland against England at Croker in the six nations in two weeks time. That's a pity.
-liam
Liam -you're either not reading my posts or you're misinterpreting them.
ANF/SS is an inclusive anthem for football as things stand ...means that Football on this island is organised along the same lines as the political jurisdictions. There would be few if indeed any attending an Irish soccer match in Dublin as home supporters who would claim the flag or anthem isn't theirs.
Rugby on the other hand is organised on an all-Ireland/All-Island basis internationally and domestically yet the ceremonial trappings are entirely those of the larger southern state.
IF football were to be organised on a similar basis I believe I'm right in saying most people down here would expect similar arrangments to pervade. That's not to say most people wouldn't be in for a hard landing ...just that's what they'd expect.
...okay ...not only are you not reading my posts -you're apparently not reading anyone elses either. Never mind ten years ago -there's 9 or 10 pages to this two week old thread -pick one page, any of them, at random -and you'll find someone bitching about Union Jacks at Windsor park. ...and yeah I DID count the Union Jacks at WP last night because they were notable only for their rarety so it was pretty easy 1 flag, 2 flags -done.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
I'd rather be supporting the Republic of Ireland against them but I'll make do with what we have. Rugby is balls anyway. Only toffs play it where I'm from. I'm far more interested in football.
No. It is you who is not reading other peoples posts. Once again my statement was.
As it stands an anthem which alienates over 1 million people on this Island and is a barrier to integration and cannot be seen as inclusive.
This _entire_ thread is in relation to an all Ireland soccer team and in that respect the national anthem is simply not inclusive. You may feel the anthem is inclusive (sometimes, in relation to soccer). I do not.
Sorry I do not understand the point you are trying to make here. Are you saying the country (North and South) has not progressed because of a few people "Bitching" on this message board? I would beg to differ - political events over the last 10 years would appear to refute your thesis.
Last edited by liaml; 07/02/2007 at 2:53 PM.
If we're talking about a hypothetical All-Ireland team I agree with you -the Irish anthem isn't particularly inclusive.
If there ever is an All-Ireland team I reckon it'll just be dispensed with -though sadly it'll probably be replaced by some dirge written by Phil Coulter and performed by w@nklife.
I think the anthem is fine so long as the team is fielded by the Dublin based FAI and on paper only represents the 26 county state.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
Not sure about that, with Coulter coming from Derry the IFA'd probably launch an appeal
Originally Posted by liaml
1. The IFA to take contol of Irish football, North and South. Headquarters in Belfast.
2. Both National anthems played before every game, same with flags and emblems.
3. Matches played in the North and in Dublin. On an equal basis.
Originally Posted by liaml with my alterations as listed above:delete the words 'North and South' from point 1 and 'and in Dublin' from point 3 and this is the blueprint for what the IFA should be doing for the 'Norn Iron' team. the team would therefore be representitive of both communities and not just one as it is now.
as regards the above points in relation to a united irish team as i've said before and will say again - i would in no way identify with a national team that sang alligence to HMtQ as part of it's national anthem and would not identify with a team playing under the union flag.
as regards the IFA representing a potential all ireland team - no problem .... as long as we're still allowed to use the granny rule
1. The IFA to take contol of Irish football, Headquarters in Belfast.
2. Both National anthems played before every game, same with flags and emblems.
3. Matches played in the North
ok so as not to re hash and disect your last post the above is what you based your assertation that i was probably being prejudiced on.
is it prejudiced - i think not.
there are people in the north who are just as irish as me - and do not feel british one dot*. do most, if any, of these people feel represented by a team who sing GStQ as their anthem and play under the Ulster (6 counties) flag. No.
if NI was to 'appeal' (for want of a better word) to both sides of the NI community then, IMO, it would need cross-community symbolism (incl. flags) and anthems - although it could alternatively play neither anthem and go with 'Danny Boy' or some other song which would unite the people as opposed to divide them.
in fairness the nationalist community takes up a large portion of the inhabitants of NI and again, imo, should be able to identify with the football team which represents the provence. with both communities having parity of esteem and recognised equally in law should the symbols of the state and anthem not represent both sections of the community - as happened in south africa following the abolition of apartheid (sp?).
am i prejudiced against the NI team or the IFA - don't think so but the bit where i said that i would have no problem with the IFA taking charge of an all ireland team must surely have driven you to this conclusion
as regards your letter to the IFA, maybe you should think of a different name for yourself before you write it
*there are also those who feel total affinity with all things british. and i respect their opinion even if it is a total polar opinion to my own.
Was that was an attempt at irony?
This is the cooooooooooooolest footy forum I've ever seen!
Since when were Finchley or Surrey in NI?
In reponse to GH's demand to remove any symbolism attached to the NI team which he considers "Unionist", I was making the point that it would therefore be consistent also to remove all "Nationalist" symbols, as a quid pro quo.
I don't think even he was suggesting the relocation of the NI team to the South East of England. What a strange idea.
There are people in Spain, such as the Catalans, Basques, Galicians etc, who do not, to varying degrees, identify with the Spanish state and by extension, the Spanish National football team. Indeed, the desire for autonomy or independence etc is replicated similarly in many other countries around the world.there are people in the north who are just as irish as me - and do not feel british one dot*. do most, if any, of these people feel represented by a team who sing GStQ as their anthem and play under the Ulster (6 counties) flag. No.
if NI was to 'appeal' (for want of a better word) to both sides of the NI community then, IMO, it would need cross-community symbolism (incl. flags) and anthems - although it could alternatively play neither anthem and go with 'Danny Boy' or some other song which would unite the people as opposed to divide them.
in fairness the nationalist community takes up a large portion of the inhabitants of NI and again, imo, should be able to identify with the football team which represents the provence. with both communities having parity of esteem and recognised equally in law should the symbols of the state and anthem not represent both sections of the community - as happened in south africa following the abolition of apartheid (sp?).
am i prejudiced against the NI team or the IFA - don't think so but the bit where i said that i would have no problem with the IFA taking charge of an all ireland team must surely have driven you to this conclusion
I do not hear you, or more importantly, FIFA, demanding that the respective FA's modify their flags, anthems, symbolism etc so as to incorporate disaffected minorities, so why do you demand this for NI?
Quite simply, the principles demanded by FIFA are that no National Football Association should do anything which explicity prohibits or excludes anyone, by virtue of race, religion, colour, disability etc from choosing to support the national team. As such, people in NI may not like GSTQ or the NI flag, but no-one is being forced to like it; such matters may simply be disregarded.
In that respect, your chosen analogy of South Africa is a good one, if not for the reason you think. In South African sport, many people (indeed the great majority) were formerly excluded by law from being allowed to represent their country. Whereas, there is no such prohibition from representing NI at football, nor ever has been.
(Still, at least your choice of apartheid SA, rather than e.g. Spain for comparative purposes with NI, provides clear evidence of your prejudice in how you see all things "Norn Iron")
Last edited by EalingGreen; 09/02/2007 at 6:39 PM.
again ealing you talk a good talk but i find your comparisons very interesting (but not for the reasons you think).
now lets revert to the original point of the thread 'an All Ireland team' and
lets, like you have already done, use spain as our comparison.
spain: one large majority (those who associate with being spanish) and the minority (those who do not associate with all things spanish) the catalans, basques...etc. a 'hypotetical' united ireland team would represent the entire island where one community would vastly outnumber the other i.e. those who see themselves as irish with a massive majority over those who see themselves as british. so by your arguement there would be no need for the tricolour or anthem to be modified to represent the disenting minority!!
never would have thought of spain so thanks for that ealing!
BTW i didn't 'demand' the removal of symbolism of unionism in relation to NI but merely stated that it is unfair to have one community represented and not the other. espically with one community representing c.53% and the other c.44%. hardly comparable with spain i would think
as posted above:
....it would need cross-community symbolism (incl. flags) and anthems - although it could alternatively play neither anthem and go with 'Danny Boy' or some other song which would unite the people as opposed to divide them. ...
PS - your attempts at spin are becoming tedious and your arguements are getting weaker and weaker. the spanish comparison is verging on the ridiculous
Last edited by galwayhoop; 09/02/2007 at 8:24 PM.
Errr we do.
1. It was not the dig at Staunton (we all do that) it was the sheer joy it generated, for you.
2. Your offensive language. I think it is the people on the receiving end and not the deliverer who determines what is offensive. No doubt you will argue otherwise.
3. Pitiful triumphant poems to celebrate Irish defeats. Very sad.
You are talking about South Africa, yet even some of their worst woke up in the end.
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