Dermot Ahern's comments on an all Ireland side

[Lionel Ritchie]

That was me... Never seen him play but by all acounts the second best left full outside the premiership (after Gareth Bale)....

will you ever quit boegardin' that gluebag.

Also while I'll agree with wolfie about some of the paranoia on that OWC thread (and some other threads too) ...it's actually no less laughable than some of the "holier than thou-isms" on this one here.

I'm not entirely convinced of the merits of an AI-league. I suspect it would end up with at very least an AI premier and a regionalised 1st and 2nd division.

I'm against an AI team ...for no other reason than I have no interest in disenfranchising people.
In the imperfect present situation everyone still has choices as to who they'd like to support ...or play for -for that matter. If the two FAs merge and field one team then all concerned lose the flags and anthems and all the other crap that goes with it that makes international football the event it is.

But oh I forgot ...plenty of us seem to believe that in the event of a merger -they'd "join us" but we might use their name (IFA), we'd play under the tricolour and sing SS when there is in fact a better chance that any of us would play under a duvet with Felicity Shagwell and sing "Take it all bitch, the whole fcukin' thing"...

Even in the event of a an AI politically unified state I don't think I'd be in favour of it. There's precedent out there ...Hong Kong for example.

[lopez]

...there is in fact a better chance that any of us would play under a duvet with Felicity Shagwell and sing "Take it all bitch, the whole fcukin' thing"...

What mushrooms you chomping there mate?

...Even in the event of a an AI politically unified state I don't think I'd be in favour of it. There's precedent out there ...Hong Kong for example.

Exactly, although in an AI unified state, if a team represents the whole island, then don't cry in your onions if the players want to ultimately play for that team.

Even then, there will be no unification unless a. FIFA decide that only one country can enter a team or b. The FAI and IFA decide to amalgamate. But this is where those honchos across the border should 'cop themselves on.' Nothing they or Mr. Aherne can do about things. I can point you and them to clubs across the world whose 'custodians' have shafted their own supporters. If they have one thing to worry about it's more the IFA 'selling out', not the grabbing of their team by the FAI.

[dr_peepee]

He isn't even the first choice left back for Northern Ireland.

Who is?? McArtney has retired (He was always injured any way) and Teenager Jonny Evans is a specialist centre half that filled in there. I mentioned Capaldi, not out of some misplaced obsession but in acknowledgement of our lack of options at left full.

But hey, why even mention them if they've never been on the books at united..

[EalingGreen]

Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia
Is that our same Ealing Green, as our own, on that site posting somewhat less than positive comments about the "ROI football team" ?

Subsequently Posted by Young Irish
Of course. Sure he does the same thing on here anyway so why would that surprise anyone? He also claims David Healy is better than Kevin Doyle or Robbie Keane though so a phrase containing 'words' and 'pinch of salt' springs to mind.

To which Paddy Garcia replied
I just thought life was a bit short for joining a forum of a team you don't like -in fact, at times, even for one you do support.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, I'm one and the same.

As for my "less than positive comments about the ROI* football team", actually, I'm positive they're my comments. Care to discuss any of them specifically? If so, I'd hope you will be a bit more accurate when you do, since nowhere have I ever said that Healy is "better" than Robbie Keane (or the still very inexperienced Kevin Doyle, for that matter). Rather, I've consistently said I wouldn't swap DH for RK internationally, for a number of reasons, not least of which is DH's 24 goals in 54 games in an often poor NI side. As such, I am confident that the rest of my fellow NI fans are 100% in agreement.
If, however, you wish to know my opinion on RK as a player, you might refer to my post in the thread on this forum ("Robbie Keane, So sick of it"), where even some ROI fans are "less than positive" about him.

As for my reasons for joining this forum, these are varied, but chief amongst them is that I love football, in particular I love the NI team and since the ROI is our nearest neighbour and our dearest rival (arguably!), I am curious to know what ROI football fans think and to debate with them.
I don't know from where your antipathy to that stance derives, since I hadn't realised there was some sort of "Ourselves Alone" policy in operation on this Board.
Indeed, I might have thought that anyone who wishes to see a United Ireland football team would actually welcome the contribution of a potential future fellow-supporter...


* - Why the use of inverted commas around my reference to the "ROI football team"?

[dr_peepee]

All due respect Ealing, I didn't quite see the "Ouselves Alone" attitude you were reffering to on this site. If anything I think most fans were quite embrasive of the idea of a united pool of player (leaving the obvious baggage aside).. But having read some of the comments on corresponding message boards from the north it's clear that it's along way off. Most of the so called "Fans" on the other site seem to have other agendas in keeping the team separate. I reiterate that any FAN would relax the analysis paralyis and at least be a little curious of how the better players from each side might impact the international stage.

Hell when I was younger in the early to mid 90's I used to daydream of a united Welsh/Irish team purely because of Wealth of talent in midfeild and defense with the wealth of wingers an attackers.

Point is, when you enter a Football message boards..... Your compatriots should leave their baggage at the door.

[EalingGreen]

All due respect Ealing, I didn't quite see the "Ouselves Alone" attitude you were reffering to on this site. If anything I think most fans were quite embrasive of the idea of a united pool of player (leaving the obvious baggage aside).. But having read some of the comments on corresponding message boards from the north it's clear that it's along way off. Most of the so called "Fans" on the other site seem to have other agendas in keeping the team separate. I reiterate that any FAN would relax the analysis paralyis and at least be a little curious of how the better players from each side might impact the international stage.

Hell when I was younger in the early to mid 90's I used to daydream of a united Welsh/Irish team purely because of Wealth of talent in midfeild and defense with the wealth of wingers an attackers.

Point is, when you enter a Football message boards..... Your compatriots should leave their baggage at the door.

Thank you for your response, but I really do feel it proves my point. OK, perhaps I shouldn't have used a provocative term like "Ourselves Alone", but I meant the idea that I and my opinions weren't welcome - presumably because I'm not from/a fan of the ROI team.
Which might be fair enough I suppose, had I been in some way subverting, abusing or "taking over" the Board, but I hardly think that's the case. (Besides, I know of two or three members of this Board - at least - who post on OWC and they're entirely welcome to do so as far as I'm concerned).
And even if the response was: "Clear Off - you've got your own Board", I daresay I could accept that, were it not for the fact that this is a thread where people are discussing merging their side with my side.
Has it not occurred to those proponents of a united side that they would not get just players from NI in the team, but they'd also be getting fans from NI alongside in the stands, including at games staged in Belfast? Or is it a case of "We'll take Stevie Davis, but we'll only play in Dublin and you fans can feck off"?

As for the notion of "embracing a united pool of players", don't you see that that must inevitably bring with it "baggage", since it will mean the end of the team we support? Can't you understand that whatever other advantages it might bring, the overwhelming majority of NI fans don't want it? I don't know which Eircom team you support, but how would you feel if some rich businessman bought it and merged it with your nearest neighbours, to form a brand new team? OK, the new entity might win more trophies, make more money and even make a splash in Europe, but in my experience, such things invariably count for nothing amongst fans when set against the feeling of belonging that supporting "your" team brings.

As for the other side of the coin, it strikes me as curious that, after 84 years, many ROI fans seem much less concerned at the prospect of losing their team. Is this because a united team satisfies certain other, non-purely footballing aspirations? (And we NI fans are the ones who get accused of bringing politics into sport - how ironic)
Or is it because some ROI fans consider this new team would in reality only be the same old ROI team "but now with 20% extra free"?

Why do you refer to "the North", when the name of the team is "Northern Ireland". Why are posters on OWC only 'so-called "Fans"'? You may not think much of people like me, but I'm as true a fan of my team as you are of yours.
It seems to me you've got "issues", and they aren't much to do with football, either.

As for the our curiosity as to how our players might do in a United Ireland team, of course we will happily speculate on such things - dammit, fans spend countless hours compiling "The World's Best Slaphead XI", or the "Top Team of Players whose Names are Parts of the Human Body" etc, but that's some way off from actually wanting to see such a team, especially if it were to replace our own!

Don't forget that this particular thread was not prompted by some mass bout of daydreaming; rather it followed a proposal by the Irish Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Dublin Government. Now quite aside from the blatant electioneering involved, have you ever stopped to think how you would feel if an NI (or GB) Minister were to step in and tell you e.g. that your breakaway in 1922 was an unfortunate mistake, so wouldn't it be better for everyone if the FAI were to disband and you all to come back within the IFA? (Incidentally, Foreign Affairs and Irish FA - rather ironic terms, don't you think? )

As for your final sentence (with the proviso that it shouldn't include abusive, threatening or offensive material) surely the whole point about a Message Board is that posters are contributing their "baggage" i.e. opinions?
Or is it just that you don't happen to like my own particular opinions?
If so, then I suggest you get used to it, since just like the NI football team, I exist, and I think I've got every bit as much right to do so as you! (With "all due respect, dr peepee", that is )

[dr_peepee]

Is this because a united team satisfies certain other, non-purely footballing aspirations? (And we NI fans are the ones who get accused of bringing politics into sport - how ironic)

A fair point man, there may well be some latent Nationalism there. I've sincerely got no politcal agenda, conciously anyway. But allot of the people on this board that have expressed an interest in an All Ireland team, myself included, would in the same breath lament missing out on the likes of Paul Scholes, Nolan and Rooney (through the granny rule), hardly the thoughts of a true "Fenian".

"The North" is just regional dialect on my part, no other connotations intended. It may well be too easy for me to speak so flippintly regarding "issues" and "baggage" due to the little or no exposure I've had to such matters. I personally welcome your contribution to this thread and any other for that matter. You're more constuctive than some of your compatriots (And mine).

Fact is though I never got as far as thinking about "Grounds" or "Fans", just purely football and players. I firmly believe that as football fans it shouldn't be too difficult to entertain a hypothetical scenario regarding these factors without taking it down the route it has gone. We all watch the news, have gone to school and know the history involved. If I wanted that kind of stimulation I'd watch Panorama, Primetime or Newsnight. Instead I frequent this message board to talk (sh!te about) football.

I can say to a large degree of certainty that had we had this conversation in the early 80's when Nothern Irish internationals would have represented signifiacantly more than the "20% extra free", or a decade or so later when I think it's fair to say NI would have struggled to make the 20% extra, my stance would be the same. It's not a case now that you've got a couple of players we're short in we want to merge.

[youngirish]

EalingGreen I have no aspirations whatsoever to have a United Ireland team, probably even less so than yourself, so on this we agree. To me Northern Ireland is a completely separate country. We might aswell merge with Brazil as far as I'm concerned and get some decent players and fit chicks with it.

What is funny though is the paranoia and suspicion that the ROI and it's team are regarded with on that NI site. The derogatory comments passed about us are amusing but deluded.

As for Dermot Ahern the man is an idiot as I've said earlier and should know better than to be stirring up sh*t on this matter.

[Not Brazil]

Who is?? McArtney has retired (He was always injured any way) and Teenager Jonny Evans is a specialist centre half that filled in there. I mentioned Capaldi, not out of some misplaced obsession but in acknowledgement of our lack of options at left full.

But hey, why even mention them if they've never been on the books at united..

Evans will play in the left back role for Northern Ireland well into the future, I would imagine.

[eirebhoy]

As for the other side of the coin, it strikes me as curious that, after 84 years, many ROI fans seem much less concerned at the prospect of losing their team. Is this because a united team satisfies certain other, non-purely footballing aspirations? (And we NI fans are the ones who get accused of bringing politics into sport - how ironic)

Well tbh it's pretty impossible to keep politics out of a subject like this. If there was no politics involved I don't see why anyone would want to merge in the first place. The only reason I'd want us to merge is because it's a huge step closer to a United Ireland. That's my personal view.

[NeilMcD]

you cant keep politics out of International football. Internationl football by its very nature is political.

[EalingGreen]

EalingGreen I have no aspirations whatsoever to have a United Ireland team, probably even less so than yourself, so on this we agree. To me Northern Ireland is a completely separate country. We might aswell merge with Brazil as far as I'm concerned and get some decent players and fit chicks with it.

What is funny though is the paranoia and suspicion that the ROI and it's team are regarded with on that NI site. The derogatory comments passed about us are amusing but deluded.

As for Dermot Ahern the man is an idiot as I've said earlier and should know better than to be stirring up sh*t on this matter.

Appreciate your first and third points, YI.

Re. the second, I agree with you that there is "paranoia and suspicion" to varying degrees amongst the NI support. However, you might not appreciate why this should be so (whether justified or not).

For one thing, the majority of ROI fans that we tend to meet on a day-to-day basis are inevitably from "the North". Now, at the risk of repeating a huge generalisation, or stereotype, Northern ROI fans are often different from Southern ones. In my experience, many (most?) Southern ROI fans are OK in their attitude to the NI team (like yourself), usually wishing it well, even to the extent of it being their "second team". Which is all fair enough.
However, certain Northern ROI fans are sometimes very different i.e. their allegiance is more than just a preference or affinity for a team, it is also a very definite statement against our team. (I'll not even go into the political shi t that often goes with it, since life's too short)

Second, in more settled times, at least, the more reasonable NI fans might not be totally averse to a new, united team so long as it was just that: "new" and "united". But I have to say, whether out of malice, ignorance or simply not having thought about it, the unspoken implication of ROI-supporting proponents of a single team is that it would be the existing ROI team (or "Ireland" as it is invariably, but erroneously referred to), with a few NI players added to the squad.
But for anyone who knows his/her sporting history, Belfast has traditionally been the "Soccer Capital of Ireland" over the 125 years of organised football on the island, as evidenced by the IFA's recent centenary. As such, matches ought to be played equally in Belfast as Dublin and there is no good reason why the Association HQ should not be up North, either. But would that happen? Would it fcuk!
Besides, we have a record of qualifying for World Cups etc when Jack O'Charlton was just a long-necked knacker in a Leeds United shirt. We're immensely proud of that and will not discard that history lightly.

Third, whenever there is a call for a single team, it is almost always from someone in the FAI/ROI camp, usually most vocally at a time when the ROI team is not doing so well and/or the NI team is doing OK. Examples of the call were often to be heard in e.g. the mid 1980's, but they weren't so loud three or four years back* when we were awful and couldn't buy a goal, never mind a victory. This severely ****es me off (for one) and hardly reassures me of the bona fides of those demanding to merge.

Finally, the issue is especially sensitive at the moment, due to the thorny issue of player eligibility. Now I think most reasonable NI fans would accept that if an NI-born player prefers to opt for the ROI, then that should be his prerogative. However, it is something else indeed if that player were to switch from representing NI as a result of being "tapped up", even induced, especially where that player had previously come up through the NI youth system and had been settled as an NI player.
Worst of all, imo, is the fact that it is only players from one community to which this applies, the effect of which would be to end up as the NI team being solely the preserve of the other community, which no-one amongst the support wants.
Of course, this is never something which is easy to prove, but there is clear evidence of it having gone on e.g from Chris Baird and Kieran McKenna and when you consider just how thin our resources are at the best of times, this is something which poses an enormous threat to our well-being as an international team.

Anyhow, there are other issues and complications, but these seem to me to be the most pertinent.




* - It was only October 2004 when Fran Rooney told the following "joke" at a function the night before the ROI v Faroes game.

Fran’s Faux Pas.

TEACHER: Johnny, what does your Dad do after work?

LITTLE JOHNNY: He’s a carpenter and when he comes home from work, he goes out to fix up things for the old people.

TEACHER: Well, he’s a fine example to the community. And Tommy, what does your Dad do?

LITTLE TOMMY: He’s an electrician and when he comes home from work, he also goes out to help the old people.

TEACHER: Another fine example to the community. So Billy, what does your daddy do?

LITTLE BILLY: My Dad’s a stripper in a gay bar and when he comes home at night, he usually brings a few other men home with him and they disappear into the back room.

TEACHER: Stop it. Stop it. Come up here, Billy. Is your Dad really a stripper in a gay bar?

LITTLE BILLY: No teacher. But I wasn’t going to tell that lot that he plays for Northern Ireland.

I don't know where Rooney is these days, but I wonder has he heard some of our comments after Nicosia? ("Imagine losing 5-2 to Cyprus. What would the score have been had it been the whole of Cyprus?" )

On which note, I shall wish you all well against (the undivided) Republic of San Marino...

[EalingGreen]

Well tbh it's pretty impossible to keep politics out of a subject like this. If there was no politics involved I don't see why anyone would want to merge in the first place. The only reason I'd want us to merge is because it's a huge step closer to a United Ireland. That's my personal view.

I agree that politics and international football are to a certain extent inseparable.

But why are your reasons for wanting a merger political, rather than footballing? Surely football should be organised so as best to serve football, rather than politics (though Dermot Aherne obviously thinks otherwise, at least when facing an election).

And shouldn't a united Ireland be the precourser to a united team, not the other way round?

I appreciate your frankness on the topic, but can't you see that football fans whose personal political convictions might be different, are going to be hacked off by this? And if football specifically and sport generally should be about anything, it should be about bringing together people who have differences, not emphasising or widening the divide.

[lopez]

LOL: I just loooove this matey 'your our nearest rivals' claptrap. Where does it stem from? The IFA split? The fact we call ourselves 'Ireland'? The 1993 international when the FAI sought a change of venue? 'Poaching' players?

The thing is the IFA have been turned over far more by their fellow 'British' associations and yet there isn't anywhere near the animosity to them that there is to the FAI. Change of venues? The Scottish FA - for some reason or other - requested a change of venue to Hampden Park every two years for most of the seventies? England and Wales did likewise between 72 and 75 and again in 1981 (I think they just refused to turn up, and the IFA to their credit declined 'a neutral venue in, erm, England or Wales') . And then who was it that cut off the IFA's cash cow? The FAI? Who are the ones that talk about a UK team when they fail to qualify for a World Cup? The FAI No! When England visit, it's all lets have a meeting between the two most maligned group of supporters in the world. Rivalry? Nurse my sides!

The desire for an all-Ireland team is down to politics. I personally would like to see an all-Ireland team because I'd like to see an all-Ireland state. Simple as that. I guess Mr Aherne is the same. Don't like it? Tough!

As for '20% free'? We're getting that 20% free already and the contributors of the 56 pages on OWC can write another 56 pages but that's not going to change. Anyway, I think it's laughable hypocrisy to bleat on about 'poaching' by a 'foreign association' - more accusations of 'tapping up' and 'inducements', but yet no evidence- and using 'Ireland', when the IFA have picked players who have never lived in the 6C nor have any family connection with it, and also continued to use the name 'Ireland' itself long after players from the 26C stopped playing for them in 1950. As for the laughable suggestion that the FAI only picks Taigs, FFS, is that a serious statement? That if George Best came along and said he was available, the FAI would turn round and tell him we only pick Catholics? What happened with Alan Kernaghan? The nun with the gift for sniffing out prods was on leave that day? I tell you what EG, it's nice to see you haven't lost your fine skill in 'hablando cojones.'

[galwayhoop]

And if football specifically and sport generally should be about anything, it should be about bringing together people who have differences, not emphasising or widening the divide.

sounds good in theory. but a utopian viewpoint that has little relevance in the reality of international football

[SaucyJack]

"The thing is the IFA have been turned over far more by their fellow 'British' associations and yet there isn't anywhere near the animosity to them that there is to the FAI."

good point Lopez, the enmity from their fans seems to be about more than football, hence the terms for the Republic, "Evil Empire", the "Dark Side", "Enemy territory"...and they wonder why kids from Nationalist backgrounds opt for the Republic.....

[Paddy Garcia]

As for my "less than positive comments about the ROI* football team", actually, I'm positive they're my comments. Care to discuss any of them specifically?

I neither welcome or don't welcome your views. I am just surprised that someone has time in their life to contribute to the forum of a team they don't like. In fact you seem to really despise the Irish team judging be your comments below. So my view is that it's a little depressing, that's all.

I think your poem on your merger thread is in poor taste (I've not copied it here). I suggest that it would guide any youngsters to hate rather than build bridges. Anyway you are entitled to your views on this team, and you are clearly an articulate guy. It's a shame you take such pleasure when Ireland lose. I'm not sure where the term "Beggar" comes from, & frankly I'm glad I don't. The irony is you also reproach some ROI fans on your thread for supporting NI opponents.

For what its worth I've always wanted NI to do well - if we are not involved. I shall therefore end exposure to the NI forum less it negatively influences me.

"God this is funny: the ROI's only hope is that everything we've seen so far is just a "blip", so that Stan really is the Man! "

"Maybe the GAWA should have a whip-round for him; after all, he's given us so much joy already in his short career, we should let him know how much we appreciate him. Perhaps Maiden City could devise an appropriate Christmas Card and we could all send Stan one, along with every other Beggar we know!  

"Have Yourself a Very Merry Cyprus"
"All I want for Christmas is my old job back"
"Oh Little Town of Nicosia"
"Oh I wish you could meet Cyprus every day"

[Paddy Garcia]

And if football specifically and sport generally should be about anything, it should be about bringing together people who have differences, not emphasising or widening the divide.

[Not Brazil]

The only reason I'd want us to merge is because it's a huge step closer to a United Ireland. That's my personal view.

[eirebhoy]

eh? Do you think Ahern wants this so we have a better chance of making a World cup? There's a reason the views on this forum are in complete contrast to those on the Northern Ireland forum.