...we're still talking football here right?...or is Ealing not the only one on the wrong board?
[/QUOTE]
Classic.
Livehead -while I don't agree with your assertion that everything Ealing says about our team is disparaging -even if it was so what? If he was Welsh would you give a flying fcuk?Any thread EalingGreen posts on, is disparaging about our national side and not always related to his 'national' side.
...we're still talking football here right?i do not enjoy it being thrust down my throat at every available option.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
...we're still talking football here right?
Classic.
This thread is about Irish football, Republic and Northern.Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy
Do you really feel that he has no right to comment on the issue of his national side being merged with another national site? But you do have a right to comment.
I am also a proud Irishman, so your pride doesnt bother me. Just your posts.
Really? This is what he said on the previous page of this thread.
I believe EalingGreen considers himself a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In other words he is a British citizen and loyal subject of Her Majesty the Queen.
What's the point of arguing? Let's ask the horses mouth - EalingGreen have you an Irish Passport or a UK (AKA British) passport?
-liam
Last edited by liaml; 04/02/2007 at 6:05 PM.
Good united Ireland rugby result at the weekend eh lads?
EalingGreen has as much right to post here as anyone, I've always found his posts to be well constructed and reasoned unlike some others of those that oppose his views .
You really don't get it, Liam, do you? This is a football message board, not the debating chamber in Stormont.
So for the purposes of this debate (which in case you've forgotten, concerns the a proposal to merge the two Irish football teams into one), my Footballing Nationality is 100% "Norn Iron", which is all you need to know.
As such, I am as entitled to debate this matter as anyone else - arguably more than some, since at least I've tried to keep to the issues with my posts, unlike those narrow-minded posters who seem obsessed with framing the debate along lines of "Who are you?", rather than "What have you got to say?".
Anyhow, re. my Passport, it's in a drawer somewhere, but I doubt I'll be required to produce it on Tuesday evening when NI are playing Wales at football, so it'll stay in the drawer. But if you really want a clue, it's the same Passport I had when I was supporting the Ireland team against Wales at rugby yesterday. In fact, it was even in the same drawer...
Last edited by EalingGreen; 05/02/2007 at 9:15 AM.
Indeed, but wrong thread.
An excellent analogy, since you refuse to a straight answer to a straight question.
LOL 'Footballing Nationality'! Hmm - how many 'Nationalities' do you actually have? A basketball 'Nationality'? A Golf 'Nationality'? Tiddlywinks?
Getting back to the debate. I cannot see it happening until there is a nationalist majority in the North. The NI fanbase, which derives the vast majority of it's support from the Unionist community would be totally opposed to it on nationalistic or political grounds. TBH only a Southern politician with no concept of the realities of the North would even have suggested it.
However. If or when it comes I believe there should be many more concessions made to the Unionist community than is currently in place for Rugby. Some suggestions I'd like to see would be
1. The IFA to take contol of Irish football, North and South. Headquarters in Belfast.
2. Both National anthems played before every game, same with flags and emblems.
3. Matches played in the North and in Dublin. On an equal basis.
As I said earlier though. Even with these changes it's still a no-goer.
-Liam
Last edited by liaml; 05/02/2007 at 12:50 PM.
I think your suggestions (above) for how a single team would operate are entirely reasonable, and if there was no way of preserving the NI team as it stands, then I would obviously have to consider giving my support to the new team.An excellent analogy, since you refuse to a straight answer to a straight question.
I refuse to answer, only because I really don't see what relevance it has to my support for NI what Passport I have. For the record, I know of NI fans who have UK Passports, some with Irish Passports (including one or two who are Unionists!) and some with both. The same goes for the players, afaik.
LOL 'Footballing Nationality'! Hmm - how many 'Nationalities' do you actually have? A basketball 'Nationality'? A Golf 'Nationality'? Tiddlywinks?
It's quite simple, really. In football, I support the NI team. In rugby, I support the Ireland team. In Cricket, I follow England (except for 1-day inernationals involving Ireland) and at the Olympics, I follow the GB and NI team. And I guess when it comes to golf, I cheer for Europe in the Ryder Cup.
The key to these allegiances are that I do not allow my personal political feelings to determine my sporting feelings, since I feel the two should be separated wherever possible.
Consequently, I follow the international team which most closely represents my own patch i.e. with competitors who come from the same place as I do, however defined by the individual sports. (I imagine this also explains why, for example, Ed Joyce can happily play for England in the cricket, or Brian Carney could play for the GB Rugby League team - they had no professional alternative closer to home)
The NI fanbase, which derives the vast majority of it's support from the Unionist community would be totally opposed to it on nationalistic or political grounds. TBH only a Southern politician with no concept of the realities of the North would even have suggested it.
Liam, I think I am somewhat closer to the NI fanbase than you. Of course many NI fans are opposed to a single team for nationalistic/political grounds. Others, like myself, are opposed because NI is my team and I simply don't wish to lose it, regardless of wherther any new team was genuinely "all-Ireland", or more successful. And many will be opposed for both those reasons.
[Indeed, there is evidence that a small part of the NI support even now is from a Nationalist background - 7% according to a Cain Study = 980 in a 14,000 crowd at Windsor. I have actually met a few of these myself. I've never asked them if they would prefer a single team over an NI team, but even if they answered "Yes", it wouldn't change my opinion of them. In fact, quite the contrary, since I greatly admire those who can subjugate their political feelings to the sporting ones, especially if they live in a community where their support for NI makes them a "minority within a minority"]
Anyhow, do not make the mistake of believing that "all NI fans are the same"!
However. If or when it comes I believe there should be many more concessions made to the Unionist community than is currently in place for Rugby. Some suggestions I'd like to see would be
1. The IFA to take contol of Irish football, North and South. Headquarters in Belfast.
2. Both National anthems played before every game, same with flags and emblems.
3. Matches played in the North and in Dublin. On an equal basis.
As I said earlier though. Even with these changes it's still a no-goer.
-Liam
But you're right that it's still a no-goer, and for two reasons, neither of which actually has anything to do with the feelings of fans, administrators etc in Ireland.
First, whilst NI and the Republic are separated politically, it will not happen, since FIFA, a body with more members than the UN(!), has never had an Association which straddles two separate political entities. Whereas, there are a number of examples where a single political entity may have more than one National Association. (Obviously the UK is one, but Denmark and the Faroes is another)
Second, even if we were to see a (politically) United Ireland, there is no guarantee this would mean the end of the IFA and the NI team.
After all, though Hong Kong reverted to PR China in 1997, it continues to field its own, separate team!
Anyhow, in the spirit of Football For All, if you're in Belfast and not San Marino tomorrow, why don't you consider popping along to Windsor Park? I'm not going myself, and it's a sell-out, but I might just be able to rustle you up a ticket. The match itself may be crap, but I think you'd be surprised at just how much the atmosphere has been transformed from even a decade ago.
I didn't raise the matter of your nationality. You did.
Others in this thread then started a debate regarding this. This seemed pointless to me since all they had to do was ask you directly. You obviously feel uncomfortable with the question though so have refused to answer it. Fair enough.
I just wouldn't feel comfortable I'm afraid. I was in Lavery's last year on a match night and there was a bunch of NI supporters just back from the match. A group of these supporters started singing loyalist songs eg The Billy Boys (up to our necks in fenian blood). I left pronto. To their credit a lot of the NI fans didn't look too happy about this either, however, it left me with the impression that things hadn't changed that much.Anyhow, in the spirit of Football For All, if you're in Belfast and not San Marino tomorrow, why don't you consider popping along to Windsor Park? I'm not going myself, and it's a sell-out, but I might just be able to rustle you up a ticket. The match itself may be crap, but I think you'd be surprised at just how much the atmosphere has been transformed from even a decade ago.
-Liam
Last edited by liaml; 05/02/2007 at 3:03 PM.
I'm genuinely sorry to hear that.
It would have been nice if the rest of the fans could have stopped it - something I've seen once or twice before, almost to the point of violence - but it's not always easy. And in any case, a group of possibly less-than-sober fans behaving so deplorably is something which Lavery's should be dealing with, whether on a matchday or otherwise.
Anyhow, I can assure you, I've not heard the Billy Boys/Sash or anything like it sung at Windsor in years - it simply doesn't happen. In fact, I wouldn't have extended the invitation if I thought anything like that would occur at the game.
When I've more time, maybe I'll look out a couple of recent eye-witness
accounts of matchday experiences by some Nationalists, including one by a former INLA prisoner, who had been exceptionally hard to persuade to go, but to his credit honestly admitted that the experience was nothing like he had expected (or remembered from years before).
P.S. I've no reason to hide the fact that I travel on a UK Passport. However, I've had cause recently (nothing sinister, I might add!) to consider applying for an Irish Republic Passport as well. Should it come about, this won't cause me any pain (other than the cost), since I've never believed that the mere possession of a piece of paper necessary for the crossing of international boundaries would change my identity, my politics, or how I see myself. Though it might change how others see me!
Last edited by EalingGreen; 05/02/2007 at 4:08 PM.
delete the words 'North and South' from point 1 and 'and in Dublin' from point 3 and this is the blueprint for what the IFA should be doing for the 'Norn Iron' team. the team would therefore be representitive of both communities and not just one as it is now.
as regards the above points in relation to a united irish team as i've said before and will say again - i would in no way identify with a national team that sang alligence to HMtQ as part of it's national anthem and would not identify with a team playing under the union flag.
as regards the IFA representing a potential all ireland team - no problem .... as long as we're still allowed to use the granny rule
Last edited by galwayhoop; 06/02/2007 at 2:51 PM.
The Northern Ireland team does not play under the Union Flag.
In fact, the Union Flag which traditionally flies at Windsor Park is removed for Northern Ireland international games.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
How much football have you actually seen in NI, GalwayHoop?delete the words 'North and South' from point 1 and 'and in Dublin' from point 3 and this is the blueprint for what the IFA should be doing for the 'Norn Iron' team. the team would therefore be representitive of both communities and not just one as it is now.
as regards the above points in relation to a united irish team as i've said before and will say again - i would in no way identify with a national team that sang alligence to HMtQ as part of it's national anthem and would not identify with a team playing under the union flag.
as regards the IFA representing a potential all ireland team - no problem .... as long as we're still allowed to use the granny rule
The fact is, when measured in terms of participation at playing, managing, coaching, officiating and administering levels, football has been much more successful than the other major two team sports - Gaelic Football and Rugby in achieving wide cross-community participation (though rugby is making valiant and efficient efforts to broaden its appeal beyond its traditional middle-class/Grammar-school/ Unionist roots)
Every week of the season, players of all ages and at all levels from a variety of clubs, which may be predominantly one community or the other, or entirely mixed, can meet and compete in Leagues and Cups throughout just about every area of NI.
Indeed, in many instances, football matches provide the only opportunity some people get to meet and mix with people from "the other side".
Of course, that is not to say that there are not tensions associated (this is NI, after all), but even at the highest level, the fact that clubs like Donegal Celtic, Newry City and Cliftonville from predominantly Catholic areas can come up against clubs like Linfield or Glentoran, gives the lie to your ignorant (prejudiced?) statement above (emboldened).
Even as I post, the NI U-21 team is playing Wales (and getting stuffed, as it happens!), with a squad that is entirely mixed:
http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/...ces-u21-squad/
(I hate to play the "name game", but it's safe to say that both communities are equally represented).
Similarly, the senior team is playing later tonight, with an equally mixed squad whereby, for instance, when former GAA-player Chris Baird from Rasharkin was forced to drop out, he was replaced by another former GAA stalwart, Sean Webb from Dungannon.
And, of course, the IFA has been recognised by FIFA, UEFA and other respected bodies for the quality of cross-community work it does:
http://www.irishfa.com/grassroots/football-for-all/
If football in NI was "representative of only one community", do you really think the IFA's Football For All programme would be endorsed and supported by e.g. the NI Community Relations Council, the Sports Council for NI or the EU Programme for Peace and Reconciliation?
Finally, I would not expect you to "identify with" a team which had GSTQ as its anthem - then again, you're from Galway! However, it's not too much to ask of people who don't support that anthem at NI matches, such as myself, to show a minimum of respect. After all, it's only the same respect I show at Ireland rugby matches for The Soldiers Song at Lansdowne - an anthem which is as alien to me as GSTQ is to you.
Oh and one last thing, they don't fly the Union Flag at Windsor for NI matches, so in this, as well as many other things, you're talking through your hoop!
more of the twenty minute of ramblings from EG where the post bears little relevance to that quoted.
answer me a question:
is GSTQ played prior to international games in WP?
if the answer is yes then answer me another:
does GSTQ represent the nationalist community?
was that my original point??
and another:
does the fact that cliftonville et al play in the IL alter the fact that a very large number (not all) of nationalists feel alienated from the Norn Iron team?
note: i was unaware that the union flag was removed from WP for internationals however my point is that i would not feel represented by it - and this is still a valid, if not a totally obvious point. and as said here before i am fully aware that you and those from your community do not feel represented by my flag. a fact and one which i do not dispute.
now can you tell me where in my post that i was prejudiced - i merely pointed out that the current situation with regard to symbolism and anthems at NI games is not representitive of both communities. if you say that it is - then it is you sir who is talking out of your hoop.
you are so hopeful of finding prejudice that you try to invent it out of thin air. if you want to find prejudice (and ignorance) it is much easier found on that other site you post on
now i am off to watch the footie on the telly
Last edited by galwayhoop; 06/02/2007 at 6:59 PM.
i think that you must be dreaming, your british colonial dreams, dreaming of ridding the world from all ghastly tongues save the queen's one.
its Amhrán na bhFiann, or, since your so keen on your politically correct acronyms, it is ANB thats bellowed(well, except for david humphreys) out at our matches. you talk about respect respect respect and more respect, and then you dont respect the anthem, man.
the opportunities for jibes/harsh pointed remarks here are bountiful, but i'll do a robbie on it and pass up the chance for a goal and an in your face celebration. i'll now remove myself to some politics forum where i can moan about the identity crises of NI, slán.
Kingdom -the thing that apparently just whooshed over your head was the point EG was making I think.i think that you must be dreaming, your british colonial dreams, dreaming of ridding the world from all ghastly tongues save the queen's one.
its Amhrán na bhFiann, or, since your so keen on your politically correct acronyms, it is ANB thats bellowed(well, except for david humphreys) out at our matches. you talk about respect respect respect and more respect, and then you dont respect the anthem, man.
the opportunities for jibes/harsh pointed remarks here are bountiful, but i'll do a robbie on it and pass up the chance for a goal and an in your face celebration. i'll now remove myself to some politics forum where i can moan about the identity crises of NI, slán.
The IRFU predate the foundation of this state, the writing of Soldiers Song -which I'm guessing you know well happens to be more or less the English translation of ANB - and it's adoption as our anthem.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
Lionel - I think the thing that just whooshed over your head was that Kingdom was simply pointing out that it would respectful to call the anthem by it's proper name. Personally I don't give a ****e what it's called.
-Liam
Last edited by liaml; 07/02/2007 at 9:27 AM.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks