Dermot Ahern's comments on an all Ireland side

[lopez]

Re. your first para, I have no great desire to see my football team associated with political symbols either of an "Irish" or "British" nature. I am quite happy for it to be a strictly "Norn Iron" affair. The clue is in the name: "Northern Ireland".

You brought up the subject of 'symbols' of the NI team. Who the f*ck were you trying to impress here? Take the Irish symbols off, and stick on something that is more reflective of your British identity. You might eliminate the situation where 13% of the population support England.

Re. your second para, how is the Spanish incorporation of "minority" symbols in their badge any different from the IFA's incorporation of "minority" symbols (Celtic Cross, shamrocks) in its badge?
I fail to see how your pointing them out supports your stance - quite the contrary in fact.
It seems to me to be yet another example of your confusing knowledge with understanding.

LOL. 'Come 'here: There's more!'

There are people in Spain, such as the Catalans, Basques, Galicians etc, who do not, to varying degrees, identify with the Spanish state and by extension, the Spanish National football team. Indeed, the desire for autonomy or independence etc is replicated similarly in many other countries around the world.

I do not hear you, or more importantly, FIFA, demanding that the respective FA's modify their flags, anthems, symbolism etc so as to incorporate disaffected minorities, so why do you demand this for NI?...

[EalingGreen]

You brought up the subject of 'symbols' of the NI team. Who the f*ck were you trying to impress here? Take the Irish symbols off, and stick on something that is more reflective of your British identity. You might eliminate the situation where 13% of the population support England.
LOL. 'Come 'here: There's more!'

Is it that you cannot comprehend, or are wilfully refusing to acknowledge, my position on this issue?

My being a supporter of NI does not reflect (or strengthen) my "British identity" any more than it compromises (or reflects) my "Irish identity".

My being an NI fan merely means that I support the NI football team, an entity which for me is neither "British" nor "Irish". This is why I am entirely happy to see the team's heritage reflected in distinctive and traditional symbols such as the Green shirt, the NI flag and the Celtic Cross.
It is also a principal reason why I would greatly like to see GSTQ replaced by something "Norn Iron".

Beyond that, I honestly couldn't give two hoots what the politics, religion, colour etc of the players or my fellow supporters are; so long as they are 100% behind the team, that's all that matters.

P.S. Why do you bring England fans into this debate? They do not want either a single Irish team or two partitioned Irish teams. Those 13% of the NI population who support England are of absolutely no concern to me. At best, they are sad, misguided individuals and at worst small-minded cretins. (Oh, and a few kids who I suppose might be forgiven for not knowing any better)

[lopez]

...P.S. Why do you bring England fans into this debate? They do not want either a single Irish team or two partitioned Irish teams. Those 13% of the NI population who support England are of absolutely no concern to me. At best, they are sad, misguided individuals and at worst small-minded cretins. (Oh, and a few kids who I suppose might be forgiven for not knowing any better)

Why do you bring Scottish players who declare for Ireland into the rant 'O'Connor And Kane Go To The Darkside, when are these bigoted w*nkers going to wake up and realise some of their neighbours want to be Irish'? What daf*ck has that got to do with the rights and wrongs of Gibson, Kane et al, playing for their country.

13% supporting England. 45% supporting Ireland. How many does that leave supporting your country (sic.)?

[livehead1]

EalingGreen....please go away, very few people want you on here, and even less can be bothered with you. You don't seem to have a lot to do with yourself

[Traps Cat]

Ealing green , would - www.foot.ni not be a better website for you?

[livehead1]

Whereas, your proposed "hypothetical United Ireland team" is not at all analagous, since it requires the merging of two separate countries entirely. Spain may have several regions, but it's still one country.

Northern Ireland may as well be a state. You are pretty much ruled from Westminster, your Stormont has no legislative powers whatsoever, you are poorly represented in Westminster, you are simply a puppet state and a state where the politicians will try out their policy ideas before implementing them on the masses. I could list examples but seeing as your name suggests Ealing, and you live in Northern Ireland, im sure you have seen this in action.

The correct analogy for your "United Ireland team" would be a "United Iberian team" i.e. Spain and Portugal merged. But FIFA would never consider this, nor should it of course, even though the disaffected (Portugese) minority would only be 5% of the whole.

Now, onto the naming of teams. Our side is called IRELAND. Not the Republic of Ireland, simply Ireland. Forget a united team, the name gives me all the proof I need, that we are the representative side of this island

But it's all academic as far as I'm concerned, since I do not accept the basic premise of your argument i.e. the contrivance of a balance of symbolism between "Unionism" and "Nationalism".
This is because football in NI, and especially with representative teams, should not be reduced to a question of political allegiance - quite thje contrary, in fact..

Yes, this is a football forum...so why do you persist at bringing politics into the discussion wherever possible. When your fans stop making deaththreats to players 'representing' your 'national' side, then maybe football in your puppet state will not be 'reduced to a question of political allegiance'. your idiotic, British hooliganism is your own downfall.

It should be solely a geographical matter. For me, this means the international football team I support is NI, since that is the country I come from, as determined by FIFA.
By the same token, when it comes to rugby, my "patch" is Ireland, as determined by the IRB.

Well you have Michael Collins to thank for your 6 counties and your national side. Geography has damn all to do with it. Fifa determine the rules for your national side so you say, they also have rules that DO allow players from the 6 counties to play for us.

Whilst im on the subject, I have read on many occassions about a challenge in the courts or to fifa attempting to ban players from the North playing for us. Having studied EU law, there are provisions set aside that will continue to allow this to happen. Going to fifa is a waste of time, they would be better going to the European Courts. But then again in such a 'wee' country, theres probably a shortage of lawyers....(sorry, had to edit that, I just remembered, with your crime levels im sure the place is full of them!)

[livehead1]

Ealing green , would - www.foot.ni not be a better website for you?

you mean .co.uk.... Northern Ireland don't have domain names based there...there governed from the mainland

[galwayhoop]

Your attempt to adopt the Spanish example for your own purpose is fundamentally flawed. Spain is a country with a number of alienated minorities, yet you do not demand that they in some way "dilute" their "Spanishness" and/or incorporate some Basque/Catalan/Galician into the team.
The same circumstances apply to NI - an alienated minority etc..

you brought spain into it ealing not me. i just re-used an example which you had introduced. the 'alienated minority' you speak of in NI is only a minority by 9% (53% unionist, 44% nationalist, 3% other). i presume that the spanish situation is slightly different in that the 'minorities' make up a much smaller percentage of the overall population. interesting that you mentioned spain though in the first place as they, along with britain, were serial land-grabbers for most of their history. in fact you may know, or may not, that many nationalists feel empathy with the basques in particular as they identify with their struggle for independance.

As i said earlier this thread is about a united irish team. and as you seem so happy with how minorities are alienated in the spanish situation, i take it, that if there were a united irish team (or country), you would therefore be happy to play under the symbols of the nationalists with regard to flag and anthem. given that the unionist community would only represent about 15% of the overall population and would fall into the 'alienated minority' category you speak of??

The correct analogy for your "United Ireland team" would be a "United Iberian team" i.e. Spain and Portugal merged. ..

did i miss something in my geography in school? were spain and portugal only partioned in the last eighty years or so and do 44% of the portuguese class themselves as spanish?


the previous posts i have written about symbolism (yes flags) and anthems are to show how the NI team only represents one community and not the other. to put it in black and white: most, if not all, nationalists neither accept nor identify with GSTQ as their anthem or the Ulster flag (6 counties) as a flag that represents them. the flag only represents the unionist side (st. georges cross, red hand and crown).


that ealing is more likely the reason why nationalists choose to declare for RoI and not the 'inducements' which you are trying to invent on this forum.


Not Brazil's post earlier is a voice of reason on the current situation with regard to RoI & NI - it is the best available as it stands. 'nationalists' can represent a national side that they feel represents them (RoI) while 'unionists' play for NI.
everyone is happy... oh, no, hold on, some aren't though are they. some want FIFA to make a ruling which would force nationalists to play for a team which has the flag and anthem of only the unionist 9% majority and has made very little effort to represent both communities - granted small steps have been taken in the last couple of years to tone down the sectarianism of the support but it's a bit like bertie's campaign posters 'a bit done .... a hell of a lot more to do yet'.

EDIT: actually in real terms the unionists only have a 3% majority but we won't split hairs

[wexfordclockend]

Why do 13% of NI support the England football team anyway? Maybe they like the song about the old german lady? Seems strange that as you would think more would be of Scottish extraction? Perhaps they don't like the prospect of an future independant Scotland

If you want to find Irish people with English surnames & / or extraction you should try south Leinster & east Munster first!

Seems strange that NI fans are really bothered about those that play schoolboy football failing to declare for the senior side, many schoolboys have played for England including Ryan Giggs, Bob Wilson ect.

Judging by the large amounts of fans from NI that follow Ireland at away games from mostly the nationalist community, not too many are interested in the symbols that represent one tradition to the exclusion of the other, not to mention the team that promotes them!

[Not Brazil]

When your fans stop making deaththreats to players 'representing' your 'national' side,

livehead1,

Could I suggest that if you know the identity of the person(s) who made these death threats, that you pass the information onto the PSNI.

If you also know them to be a Northern Ireland fan, the IFA will be delighted to know their identity also.

Of course, Neil Lennon was not the only Northern Ireland player to receive death threats over the years - George Best was threatened by republican militants.

Do you remember when certain black ROI players received vile hate mail during Kerr's reign? Was that ROI fans?

Do you remember when the Aussie Rules player allegedly received a death threat during an International Rules series. GAA fans, was it?

[Not Brazil]

13% supporting England. 45% supporting Ireland.

How did you arrive at the 45% figure lopez?

[Not Brazil]

granted small steps have been taken in the last couple of years to tone down the sectarianism of the support but it's a bit like bertie's campaign posters 'a bit done .... a hell of a lot more to do yet'.

Of course, those from the North who were in San Marino "supporting" the ROI and singing their IRA and "**** The Queen" songs (as reported on this board) would be the first to condemn the "bigots" who follow Northern Ireland.

[Not Brazil]

Why do 13% of NI support the England football team anyway? Maybe they like the song about the old german lady

England and Northern Ireland both play GSTQ before international football matches.

[livehead1]

livehead1,

Could I suggest that if you know the identity of the person(s) who made these death threats, that you pass the information onto the PSNI.

If you also know them to be a Northern Ireland fan, the IFA will be delighted to know their identity also.

are you speaking on behalf of the IFA here? If not, then don't pretend to.

Of course, Neil Lennon was not the only Northern Ireland player to receive death threats over the years - George Best was threatened by republican militants.

Lennon's was the only one in recent years deemed serious enough by the authorities that they advised him not to play.

[Not Brazil]

are you speaking on behalf of the IFA here? If not, then don't pretend to.

Lennon's was the only one in recent years deemed serious enough by the authorities that they advised him not to play.

I repeat - if you have any information that can help identify the person(s) responsible for the death threat against Neil Lennon, and can confirm categorically that he/they is/are Northern Ireland fans, I'm sure both the PSNI and the Community Relations Manager at the IFA will be only too glad to hear from you.

You can tell the CRM at the IFA that "Not Brazil" sent you.

[livehead1]

I repeat - if you have any information that can help identify the person(s) responsible for the death threat against Neil Lennon, and can confirm categorically that he/they is/are Northern Ireland fans, I'm sure both the PSNI and the Community Relations Manager at the IFA will be only too glad to hear from you.

You can tell the CRM at the IFA that "Not Brazil" sent you.

o dear, what a contradiction. On previous posts you are quite happer to conclude that republican's sent threats to george best, yet in this post you are asking me to confirm that it was northern ireland fans.

Then you also state that is they are ni fans the psni would like to find out who they are...so does that mean if their not, they don't???

[Not Brazil]

o dear, what a contradiction. On previous posts you are quite happer to conclude that republican's sent threats to george best, yet in this post you are asking me to confirm that it was northern ireland fans.

Then you also state that is they are ni fans the psni would like to find out who they are...so does that mean if their not, they don't???

No.

It means that if you have any information that can confirm the identity of the person(s) who issued the death threat to Neil Lennon, you should give that information to the PSNI.

If you have information that the culprit (s) can be identified as Northern Ireland fans, you should forward that information to to the Community Relations Manager at the IFA.

Comprende?

[Not Brazil]

Now, onto the naming of teams. Our side is called IRELAND. Not the Republic of Ireland, simply Ireland. Forget a united team, the name gives me all the proof I need, that we are the representative side of this island

Dream on.

[lopez]

... interesting that you mentioned spain though in the first place as they, along with britain, were serial land-grabbers for most of their history...

Hold on GH. You're right about some of my ancestors being landgrabbers but they were landgrabbers off the Moors (No longer PC, so we'll stick to Arabs) who took the land in the first place upto the remoter parts of Northern Iberia. They then couldn't stop landgrabbing until they got to Tierra del Fuego, Manila, and Equatorial Guinea. But the landgrabbing was not done with either the Basques, Galicians or Catalans. The making of Spain was done by full acceptance of union by the leaders of the three peoples which were themselves in greater kingdoms themselves (Leon, Navarra and Aragon). Disenchantment of the minority came with Fat Frank.

To compare. Scotland can not claim to be victims of a land grab. Ireland can.

How did you arrive at the 45% figure lopez?

Would you prefer the 55% that rang up the BBC supporting an all-Ireland team?

livehead1,

Could I suggest that if you know the identity of the person(s) who made these death threats, that you pass the information onto the PSNI.

If you also know them to be a Northern Ireland fan, the IFA will be delighted to know their identity also.

Of course, Neil Lennon was not the only Northern Ireland player to receive death threats over the years - George Best was threatened by republican militants.

Do you remember when certain black ROI players received vile hate mail during Kerr's reign? Was that ROI fans?

Do you remember when the Aussie Rules player allegedly received a death threat during an International Rules series. GAA fans, was it?

I think Lennon's death threat was the most liklely to be acted on. I doubt the rah would have capped Bestie's ass.

But your right about the alleged being a NI fan. No proof. But neither is it likely to be a nationalist as some have more than snidely insinuated on ourweeminds. I'd place the person in the 13% you mentioned.

BTW, I meant to bring this up on a previous cyber rumble we had, but I found some poll that suggested a growing number of under 25 protestants who are favouring an independent Northern Ireland. (if you ask nicely I'll try and find it ) Unionism is perhaps dying in NI. If it is, you may well see yourweecountry actually become a reality in more than football terms.

[Not Brazil]

BTW, I meant to bring this up on a previous cyber rumble we had, but I found some poll that suggested a growing number of under 25 protestants who are favouring an independent Northern Ireland. (if you ask nicely I'll try and find it ) Unionism is perhaps dying in NI. If it is, you may well see yourweecountry actually become a reality in more than football terms.

Not a mission of an "independent Northern Ireland" coming into being.

PS. I don't put much stock on BBC "polls" - when 51% of Northern Ireland block bookers say they fancy a single Irish team, I'll take heed.

At the minute, I'd suggest the figure is about 50% short of that.