Ahern Calls For All-reland League

[BohsPartisan]

amhrán na queen

I like it!

[BohDiddley]

I would be much more interested in having an all-island league than an all-Ireland team.
I was in unfamiliar territory at Lansdowne for the Last Stand against Ulster there a few weeks ago for my first ever inter-provincial (yawn). Now, I understand that these lads tend to be mellow, but there was no problem whatsoever with Ulster fans waving red hand flags with crowns on.
Apart from the vested interests, which could be overcome if enough weight of opinion was behind the idea, I can't see a good reason why we can't have an honest fudge, and just like rugby, sidestep the politics for the benefit of the game.

[BohsPartisan]

Now, I understand that these lads tend to be mellow,

Trevor Brennan might disagree!

[David]

I would be much more interested in having an all-island league than an all-Ireland team.
I was in unfamiliar territory at Lansdowne for the Last Stand against Ulster there a few weeks ago for my first ever inter-provincial (yawn). Now, I understand that these lads tend to be mellow, but there was no problem whatsoever with Ulster fans waving red hand flags with crowns on.
Apart from the vested interests, which could be overcome if enough weight of opinion was behind the idea, I can't see a good reason why we can't have an honest fudge, and just like rugby, sidestep the politics for the benefit of the game.

Agree totally with this post.

[Jamjar]

1. Nationalism is only a concoction of the ruling classes to justify imperialism and capitalism, so I personally couldn't give a flying feck whether Ireland play as one team or not. We need a united workers republic team to represent us.

2. International football is doomed, if the big european clubs get their way as regards compensation for players injured on international duty.

3. Ireland, north and south, will never sustain professional football. There just is not the support for it. There are too many teams and not enough paying punters. Ideas like those tried in rugby, a few professional clubs playing in a celtic league is the way forward. Have half a dozen professional clubs from Ireland (north and south), the welsh league and the bottom half of the scottish premier league. Hell, why not even get some lower league english teams involved.

4. As long as Ireland (united or NI/RoI) beat england, I'm happy. (Unfortunately some remnants of jingoism remain with me, I am working on this)

[dcfcsteve]

If you merge England and Scotland they would have a better chance of winning things. If Switzerland merged with Austria it would make them strong, if Brazil and Argentina merged their national teams it would make them virtually unstoppable yet I don't hear of anyone in these countries calling for it to happen. People want their national identity and a national team should be what it says on the tin, the national team of that country. Once you start merging national teams it would turn into a farce.

There are four key differences though that totally blow your arguement here out of the water :

1) The people of Brazil are Brazilians, and the people of Argentina are Argentinians. Meanwhile, as you yourself rightly asert, the people of both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are Irish. We're talking about the same people here (albeit with a sub-section primarily in the north-east of the island), with a shared history, culture, language etc. Things that Brazil and Argentina simply do not have in common.

2) Anyone born in Northern Ireland is automatically entitled to play for the Republic. This is simply not the case with Brazil and Argentina.

3) The Republic and the North play together as one team in practically all sports. Brazil and Argentina play together in no sports.

4) There has in the past been a single team representing the island of Ireland in international football. This was only changed for political, not footballing, reasons. This has [U][I]never[U][I] been the case for Brazil and Argentina.

So your arguement doesn't hold any water. Having a single international team for the island of Ireland would be absolutely nothing like Brazil and Argentina joining together, and to suggest so is ludicrous.

[dcfcsteve]

So you want a merged team yet only want one part of that team recognised? Very fair indeed. I wonder why people up here would be against that. You are being totally unreasonable.

You mean - just like the flag and anthem of the Northern Irish team only recognises one section of that 'country's' population...? "Very fair indeed. I wonder why people up here are against that. You are being totally unreasonable"....

For the record - I would be happy to have no tricolour or Amhran na bhFiann for a combined team. I'd even go so far as to say it would be essential. Sadly, many of our northern cousins seem unable to reciprocate such a liberal ethos, preferring to hide behind the spurious 'official' argument to enforce selective flag waving and song-singing when it comes to the Northern Ireland team though. "Very fair indeed"......

[dcfcsteve]

would i identify with a single national team that neither played under the tricolour nor sang Amhrán na bhFiann: NO

would you identify with a single national team that played under the tricolour or sang Amhrán na bhFiann: NO

does that make me wrong: NO

You are wrong here GalwayHoop - if only because you're not comparing like with like.

You say that you wouldn't accept an Irish team not playing under the ROI's current symbolism. This therefore clearly suggests that yiou wouldn't accept an all-island team playing under neither the north nor the south's symbolistic trappings. This is unreasonable, as you want it all your own way. A team representing 2 distinct regions, ethnic groups and identities must reflect only one of those identities exclusively, or you'll throw your toys out of the pram.

You then go on to ask would David accept an all-island team under the Republic's symbolism, when to provide a proper comparison with your own question you should've asked would he not support one that didn't use British symbolism solely.

You also didn't ask him would he support an all-island team under neither side's symbolism - which, regardless of his own personal answer to that question, is surely the only fair and sensible thing to do when combining 2 different regions and identites as one. Hence why such an approach is followed around the world in such initiatives to reflect and embrace difference (including, I might add, things in Northern Ireland such as the PSNI identity and make-up).

[David]

You mean - just like the flag and anthem of the Northern Irish team only recognises one section of that 'country's' population...? "Very fair indeed. I wonder why people up here are against that. You are being totally unreasonable"....

For the record - I would be happy to have no tricolour or Amhran na bhFiann for a combined team. I'd even go so far as to say it would be essential. Sadly, many of our northern cousins seem unable to reciprocate such a liberal ethos, preferring to hide behind the spurious 'official' argument to enforce selective flag waving and song-singing when it comes to the Northern Ireland team though. "Very fair indeed"......

Been here before Steve. Fact is the national anthem of Northern Ireland is GSTQ. That is not being in any way sectarian, it is the national anthem of our country. Countries all over the world (including ROI) have their national anthem played before games, why should we be denied that?

[David]

There are four key differences though that totally blow your arguement here out of the water :

1) The people of Brazil are Brazilians, and the people of Argentina are Argentinians. Meanwhile, as you yourself rightly asert, the people of both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are Irish. We're talking about the same people here (albeit with a sub-section primarily in the north-east of the island), with a shared history, culture, language etc. Things that Brazil and Argentina simply do not have in common.

2) Anyone born in Northern Ireland is automatically entitled to play for the Republic. This is simply not the case with Brazil and Argentina.

3) The Republic and the North play together as one team in practically all sports. Brazil and Argentina play together in no sports.

4) There has in the past been a single team representing the island of Ireland in international football. This was only changed for political, not footballing, reasons. This has [U][I]never[U][I] been the case for Brazil and Argentina.

So your arguement doesn't hold any water. Having a single international team for the island of Ireland would be absolutely nothing like Brazil and Argentina joining together, and to suggest so is ludicrous.

I have already said that other sports and what they do does not interest or concern me. When Ireland play rugby I feel no affiliation whatsoever towards that team. They play with all the trappings of ROI and none of NI. I have nothing whatsoever against ROI but I am not from that country so do not identify with it. Yes we are all Irish and I have no problem whatsoever in someone classing me as Irish ie I am from the island of Ireland in much the same way that I have no problem in someone saying I am European.

As for your argument that anyone from Northern Ireland can play for ROI, that is of course correct but something I feel is fundamentally wrong. In following this rule it means that someone could play for ROI having never set foot in that country nor any of their family having set foot in it. People have every right to aspire to a United Ireland but another fact is that this does not exist and the fact is that NI and ROI are as much two separate countries as Brazil and Argentina. Yes there are obvious links but they are two separate countries, governed by two separate governments with two separate currencies and two sets of laws.

[Dassa]

when will people let this ridiculus idea die. I for one am not a unionist but NI will be around alot longer as a team. the supporters base is growing confidence is back and there is a feel good factor around at present. i wish ROI all the best but comments like this put relations btween the FA's and the two sets of fans years back.

using rugby as an example is ridiculus. i dont support Ireland,as mentioned before I feel its a disgrace for two countries playing as one representative team to only have the symbols and anthems of one of the countries. this sends out a message to people from NI of what the future in an AI team in football would be like and i for one would not feel a part of it

[WeAreRovers]

Regardless of anthems, flags etc, the only international team on the island that I support (and will ever support) is Northern Ireland.

That will be the case until I die.

That's the general Nationalist demographic theory anyway - wait for all the Unionists to die or at least to be outnumbered. If I were you lot, I'd negotiate from a position of strength while you have a chance.

KOH

[dcfcsteve]

Been here before Steve. Fact is the national anthem of Northern Ireland is GSTQ. That is not being in any way sectarian, it is the national anthem of our country. Countries all over the world (including ROI) have their national anthem played before games, why should we be denied that?

GSTQ is the national anthem of the UK - yes. I don't remember it technically being the national anthem of individual parts of the UK though, which is probably why Scotland and Wales use their own separate ones, and why even England is highly likely to ditch it at some point. Other regions/nations like Cornwall also have their own separate anthems. Incidentally - GSTQ actually predates the Act of Union between Britain and Ireland in 1802.

Even for the recent BBC1 programme where the 4 home nations competed in an interactive television quiz, they used 'Danny Boy' to represent NI, along with the individual anthems for the other home nations.

As for the 'fact' that GSTQ is the supposed national anthem not being sectarian, - just because something is a legal or political decision doesn't make it either fair, equitable, democratic or non-sectarian, particularly in a society like Northern Ireland which (as the news confirmed as recently as only yesterday) had a throughly scurrilous regiume at its head for years. Numerous such rules in NI under the Stormont regime and after, for example, may therefore have been 'fact' - but they were certainly also sectarian. Was it not sectarian to make it a criminal offence to display the flag of the Republic of Ireland in Northern Ireland up until 1980, even though you could legally display any other flag...? You see David - just because something is a political or legal 'fact' does not therefore automaticlly cleanse it of any inherent sectarianism.

Having a divisive flag and anthem to represent 2 bitterly divided communities may be 'fact' but it is also sectarian by its own definition. It seeks to represent only one 'sect'. And it is for this reaosn that GSTQ will inevitably go the way of other 'facts' with a sectarian basis - such as the RUC, Stormont, football on a Sunday, electoral gerrymandering - as the peace process thankfully progresses.

[galwayhoop]

You say that you wouldn't accept an Irish team not playing under the ROI's current symbolism. This therefore clearly suggests that yiou wouldn't accept an all-island team playing under neither the north nor the south's symbolistic trappings. This is unreasonable, as you want it all your own way. A team representing 2 distinct regions, ethnic groups and identities must reflect only one of those identities exclusively, or you'll throw your toys out of the pram.

You then go on to ask would David accept an all-island team under the Republic's symbolism, when to provide a proper comparison with your own question you should've asked would he not support one that didn't use British symbolism solely.

there is a difference between the word i used: IDENTIFY and that you used: ACCEPT.

i in no way identify to being british. never have had the need and never will. i am through and through irish.

my point, although it has been totally lost and mis-quoted, was that from my individual perspective i would not identify to a national team representing me which neither displayed my flag or played my anthem. end of story. i put forward that i would like an all ireland national team with tricolour and Amhrán na bhFiann. that is my opinion and i expect no-one else to agree with me on it - least of all david, or for that matter to ram it down anyone else's throat.

i have not asked david to identify to my flag or anthem or accept my nationalism as his or indeed to accept a national team which only championed these. in fact i am quite aware that he would never do so. my point all along was that this is my view but i'm fully aware that there are total polar opposite views out there too.

and as such the suggestion of an all ireland national team is much more unfeasible than just the FAI and IFA aggreement.

i have scanned through OWC and comments like over my dead body etc to the scenario are common place as expected.

if you would identify to an irish national team representieng anything british then thats your choice however i don't. i don't say i'm right but i'm not going to lie to make others feel good.

[dcfcsteve]

i dont support Ireland,as mentioned before I feel its a disgrace for two countries playing as one representative team to only have the symbols and anthems of one of the countries. this sends out a message to people from NI of what the future in an AI team in football would be like and i for one would not feel a part of it

But it's ok when the shoe is on the other foot and the 2 divided communities within Northern Ireland have the symbolism of a single identity 'officially' forced upon them on the international stage ? And don't pretend that it's different because the 2 commnunities in the north aren't different countries - the principle is exactly the same.

If you force an identity upon people that they cannot relate to, then they will reject it - along with anything claiming to represent them that carries that polarised identity. Hiding behind the mask of 'officialdom' does not change that reality.

Wonder why so many nationalists likewise do not feel part of a single representative international football team for the 2 distinct communities within the north, which only uses the symbols and anthems of one of the communties it claims to represent.....

[dcfcsteve]

if you would identify to an irish national team representieng anything british then thats your choice however i don't. i don't say i'm right but i'm not going to lie to make others feel good.

But why must it be a zero-sum game for you - one side over the other ? Why can you only see the options as being Irish or British symbolism, and nothing else. Why not a combined identity (e.g. the South African flag) ?

Why not a single team with neither GSTQ or Amhranm na bhFiann; neither the Tricolour nor the Union Flag ?

Is your sense of Irishness so fragile that it can only be propped-up publically by one single song and one single flag/piece of cloth ? What is wrong with the 4 provinces flag, for example - it's Irish, and represents all parts of the island equally !? It's also quasi-official. What is wrong with any other song that might extoll the virtues and history of Ireland, other than just Amhran na bhFiann ? Why can it ONLY be one single song and one single flag ? Do you not see how ridicolous that sounds ?

[BohDiddley]

Is your sense of Irishness so fragile that it can only be propped-up publically

We do cafés now too

[Not Brazil]

But it's ok when the shoe is on the other foot and the 2 divided communities within Northern Ireland have the symbolism of a single identity 'officially' forced upon them on the international stage ? And don't pretend that it's different because the 2 commnunities in the north aren't different countries - the principle is exactly the same.

If you force an identity upon people that they cannot relate to, then they will reject it - along with anything claiming to represent them that carries that polarised identity. Hiding behind the mask of 'officialdom' does not change that reality.

Wonder why so many nationalists likewise do not feel part of a single representative international football team for the 2 distinct communities within the north, which only uses the symbols and anthems of one of the communties it claims to represent.....

dcfcsteve,

Let's assume the following scenario.

Northern Ireland international football adopts a new sporting anthem and "official" flag, it even moves to a new ground. It continues to select players from both communities. The team unapologetically represents "Northern Ireland".

The Republic of Ireland maintains current arrangements viz a viz anthem and flag, and more proactively seeks to encourage kids of a certain leaning in Northern Ireland to represent them.

Who will Northern nationalists/republicans support?

[dcfcsteve]

dcfcsteve,

Let's assume the following scenario.

Northern Ireland international football adopts a new sporting anthem and "official" flag, it even moves to a new ground. It continues to select players from both communities. The team unapologetically represents "Northern Ireland".

The Republic of Ireland maintains current arrangements viz a viz anthem and flag, and more proactively seeks to encourage kids of a certain leaning in Northern Ireland to represent them.

Who will Northern nationalists/republicans support?

Whoever the hell they want David ! Some will support the Republic, some will support the north. That's life ! Though it is extremely likely that, over time, many more would support the North under such a scenario as you outlined above than would under the existing polarising set-up where the team rejects their identity and embraces an opposing one instead !

You're fixated with the whole numbers game of the issue, which is feckin irrelevant. For example, did the post-apartheid South African government say 'look how few white people there are in the country relative to us blacks, why do we need to bother including them in a new national flag' ? No - they changed the flag and anthem etc because it was simply the right thing to do to help heal a deeply divided and troubled society. They didn't spreadsheet the impact upon annual sales....

The Northern Ireland international team should likewise seek to do the right thing, and not use notions of ticket and merchandise sales before deciding whether they should bother seeking to not alienate a large chunk of the 2 communities they claim to represent.

I wasn't aware that concepts such as 'equality' and 'mutual respect' came with price tags or quorums attached.....

[Not Brazil]

[QUOTE=dcfcsteve;610017]Whoever the hell they want David ! Some will support the Republic, some will support the north. That's life ! Though it is extremely likely that, over time, many more would support the North under such a scenario as you outlined above than would under the existing polarising set-up where the team rejects their identity and embraces an opposing one instead !
QUOTE]

I'm not David.

"extremely likely"?

Swap supporting the ROI for supporting Northern Ireland?

The "team" rejects nothing of their "identity" by the way.