QuoteYou provided some figures for various grades (i forget the names). I was just saying those grades & roles mean nothing to me.Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
In your own biased opinion
you've lost me there Pete, what is an admin secretary?You can provide rates of pay for Admin Secretarys but what is the equivalent roile in the private sector?
TO TELL THE TRUTH IS REVOLUTIONARY
The ONLY foot.ie user with a type of logic named after them!
All of this has happened before. All of it will happen again.
You provided some figures for various grades (i forget the names). I was just saying those grades & roles mean nothing to me.
Clerical Officers - the majority grade in the CS, do most of the work. It varies a lot and ranges from public office duties to data entry to data extraction to IT support.
Executive Officer - lower middle management
Higher Executive Officer - Higher middle managaement
TO TELL THE TRUTH IS REVOLUTIONARY
The ONLY foot.ie user with a type of logic named after them!
All of this has happened before. All of it will happen again.
Again I'll ask for links to analysis, preferably from independant bodies. Back up your arguments with facts.
As for Bohspartisan claims that the ESRI are a right wing think thank. I got a good laugh out of that one.
Macy, Dodge, Bohspartisan you all work in the Public Sector and you all have a vested financial interest in clinging to an argument that Public Sector workers are worse off than those in the private sector because Benchmarking 2 is currently underway, but yet you can't back it up.
I am especially suprised at your arguments Bohspartisan as you are constantly preaching to us about the glories of a unionised workforce and the one area of the workforce that is highly unionised and militant (Public Sector)is clearly better off financially than the private sector where union density is down to around 20%, if that. Surely these stats prove your point!
I also cannot understand why you don't make the point that you get paid more because you are worth it! I know I do and would if anyone said it about me!
Maybe you work harder, maybe you are very productive...
Cork City FC
1. There is no such thing as an independant body. All of them have vested interests.
2. I gave you hard facts.
3. The ESRI is driven by right wing economics (cut this, privatise that) therefore what I said is correct.
I've seen more lambs that are more militant than the leadership of my union.I am especially suprised at your arguments Bohspartisan as you are constantly preaching to us about the glories of a unionised workforce and the one area of the workforce that is highly unionised and militant (Public Sector)
TO TELL THE TRUTH IS REVOLUTIONARY
The ONLY foot.ie user with a type of logic named after them!
All of this has happened before. All of it will happen again.
But it was backed up in Benchmarking 1, which was independent and saw increases in pay in the Public Sector to bring it in line with the Private Sector. It remains the only in depth study that has been done on Private v Public. If there is no wage gap or it's in favour of the Public sector Benchmarking 2 will show this.
Your ERSI study was a small group over a small period. You've nothing else except average comparisons that ERSI say are pointless
If that's true, then the private sector workers should re-organise and stop voting for right wing Governments. And you're deluded if you think the CPSU, PSEU and AHCPS (who essentially negotiate the pay scales for the whole public service) are militant.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Benchmarking was not an independant analysis but a bribe for public sector industrial relations peace. It was not backed up by any stats or figures and its deliberations and results were never published or made available to the public. As I have quoted earlier even Labour have called for a more thorough and transparent process for Benchmarking 1.
It will be interesting though the results of Benchmarking 2 and whether it is more transparent and public.
The ESRI study was conducted at a time before a lot of the Benchmarking increases kicked in so the differentials as of now would be even greater.
As for being deluded well the only delusions in evidence in this thread is the consistant claim (unsubstantiated) that "on a like for like basis" Public Sector workers are worse off than their Private Sector colleagues.
Last edited by rebs23; 24/01/2007 at 3:22 PM.
Cork City FC
Good point.I also cannot understand why you don't make the point that you get paid more because you are worth it! I know I do and would if anyone said it about me!
rebs23 can take the baton from here as i'm off to Davos so see if can exploit the masses a bit more...
btw can't believe the credibility of the ESRI is in question. They are not political & just as likely to produce report backing up the government of the time as criticising them...
That doesn't mean they don't have an agenda. Its not a party political agenda but its still ideologically right wing. Similar to the "Freedom Institute" or Magill magazine.
TO TELL THE TRUTH IS REVOLUTIONARY
The ONLY foot.ie user with a type of logic named after them!
All of this has happened before. All of it will happen again.
It's the guys without an agenda that you have to worry about. It amounts to indifference and that's worse, in my book!
Have Boot Disk, will travel
Not sure what agenda they have but are you suggesting all economists have an agenda because they support the market economy as opposed to a state market?
Not all economists support the market economy. Most do and yes they have an agenda. That agenda lies in getting the best paying jobs by supporting the system. They are taught in school and university that this is the way things are, they are bound by the strict constraints of political economy. Their education is ideology driven therefore they are ideology driven. Their carreers have been built supporting this ideology. It is not in their interests to oppose it.
TO TELL THE TRUTH IS REVOLUTIONARY
The ONLY foot.ie user with a type of logic named after them!
All of this has happened before. All of it will happen again.
Trade Unions were not bound by Industrial Relations peace via Benchmarking -their bound to that by the national wage agreements. It remains the only in depth study that was done on the issue.
So you're standing by the claim that CPSU, PSEU and AHCPS are militant Trade Unions?
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Public Sector is relatively militant compared to Private Sector workforce but yes I take the point about those unions.
As for your other point, Benchmarking was as a result of National Wage Negotiations, a process of negotiation between the Social Partners to ensure industrial realtions peace!
Cork City FC
Yes, he has had to come down to a level of intelligence that an RTE producer would understand. Hence the constant mention of shopping and so on.
But I was delighted when last night he mentioned just how much of an economic aparthide the semi-state and public sector is and is being kept that way by Liberty Hall, who despite their platitudes about "Israel, Social Justice, Equality" and so on are only interested in keeping non family members out of their scam.
They Irish Ferries March of a few years back was without a doubt Ireland first national anti-foreigner rally. That was our own BNP mindset in action and it was all organised by the bearded ones of Liberty Hall/Labour Party. Hence why only 1% of the public sector in this country is non-Irish. It's a racist, protectionist, bigoted, greedy con job and we are paying for it.
This is not talked about enough and it is the biggest disgrace in modern Ireland. The union/Labour Party controlled public sector in this country is not only delivering horrifically bad quality public services for the riches lavished upon it by the private sector worker, but it is also undemocratic and Liberty Hall/SIPTU/ IMPACT/Labuor are determined to keep it that way.
They'll destroy this county's economy so "Deco's young lad can get a job at the airport" when he leaves school. It's all based on family bloodlines being financed by you and I.
So well done McWIlliams for pointing this out.
Last edited by Boh_So_Good; 25/09/2007 at 12:39 PM.
In my couple of years on foot.ie I've read some utter, utter bullsh1t ...but you sir have raised the bar.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
So Loinel how do you explain the 1% of foreign workers in the public sector in a workforce were going on quarter the workers are immigrants?In my couple of years on foot.ie I've read some utter, utter bullsh1t ...but you sir have raised the bar.
Are you going to tell me you have to named either Deco or Anto to drive a DART, or foreigners do not have the skills to handle baggage at Cork airport?
Or better still, the PPARS overruns are a traditional aspect of the civil service and to bring in foreign competent employees would somehow take away the rustic nature of generations of boiled cabbage raised civil servants?
Com'on we are all waiting to see how you can defend the astounding lack of diversity in the public sector without a "send them All Back " approach.
The Irish Ferries march was about sacking workers so they could employ people at way below the Irish Minimum wage. It was not about foreign workers, it was about the exploitation of foreign workers. Nothing the Union movement has done has been anti-foreigner; it has been anti-exploitation of foreign workers and the race to the bottom in wages and conditions. You are talking nonsense in your anti union rant that they are racist - it's quite the opposite and it's a lie spun by the right that maintaining wage rates and conditions of employment is somehow racist. It's about maintaining those rates and conditions for all workers, regardless of race, gender, religion. Perhaps you could get hold of a copy of The Liberty and read the campaigns and disputes around the country where SIPTU is fighting for foreign workers. You could maybe talk to the East European Organisers that SIPTU employ, read the many leaflets that are produced in multiple languages that inform foreign workers of their rights.
As for the public sector, any low level of immigrants is more to do with the age profile of the workers. The Public Sector, because of it's union penetration has equality policies above and beyond the legislation, not inspite of it. It's laughable to suggest that Unions have any influence in recruitment. You'd be better looking towards Government buildings for a group that is packing the Civil and Public Service with "their" men and women.
If that really was the gist of McWilliams programme last night, he really is at the bottom of the barrel - an economist race to the bottom maybe?
Last edited by Macy; 25/09/2007 at 1:16 PM.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Low turnover of staff, and the public sector have fixed wage rates and no dodgy employers to exploit foreign workers like in many areas of the private sector.
Ever get the bus in Dublin or is that too working class for you?
I'm sure you know, being so knowledgable, that every aspect of PPARS from scoping to development to aborted implementation was outsourced to the private sector?
I repeat, low turnover of staff and no benefit from exploiting workers. Nothing to do with Union protectionism. If it ever existed anyway (if only would be one of my reactions given some of the fools that get recruited!). I'd say here, non irish recruits would be at least a quarter in the last few years. But that probably would be making little impression in the organisation as a whole where there isn't much turnover in mainly specialist positions
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Firstly are you a public sector employee/union member and how impartial are you in this debate?
Secondly, Until European Labour Laws put an end to it, on CIE, Aer Lingus and An Post applications, there was a line which asked "what relative of yours currently works for CIE, Aer Lingus and An Post?". Most of the staff of these "companies" in 2007 were employed under this past bloodline arrangement.
Go over to RTE sometime, it's all uncles, sister, cousins, brothers and fathers in there from the senior production staff to the canteen.
Liberty Hall has taken the "jobs for the boys" concept to heights which Liam Lawlor would of never even dared to imagine. What Lawlor got in a brown envelope, the public sector trade union member in this country gets in partnership and benchmarking.
It's a sensational scam and one most Irish people seem oblivious to. But that'll change when the economy collapses and the few private sector workers who are still working (or not leaving for London, Boston etc) will be raped with 60% tax to pay for the semi-state and civil services benchmarking and their partnership economic aparthide scam - the same public sector who did nothing to create the Celtic Tiger, but played a massive part in its downfall.
The public sector is Ireland is mainly a self-serving, racist scam, a protection racket and does not work for the Irish society as a whole. We are being taxed to provide inter-generational employment for certain families all over the country. We need a Iron Lady in this country to privatise most of it and sack the ten of thousands of dossers in it.
Hence the Irish Ferries March, it was about making sure "Our young Frankie would have the job at the ESB waiting for him after his junior cert and no darkie or Pole gets it".
Any private sector worker in this country who supported that Irish Ferries march was a turkey voting for christmas. You might as well have took the money out of your savings account and handed to the SIPTU reps who were whipped up into a state of xenophobic hysteria and foaming at the mouth greed on that very telling day.
Oh and BTW I am VERY working class. This is another myth Liberty Hall tells us they represent the working classes. You would be hard pressed to find anyone in any public sector unions in this country who could be classed as "working class". Most of them are very well off.
So let's kill this this myth now that someone with a salary package and pension work 120K a year and an unsackable job for life is "working class" just because they work for a semi-state, vote Labour and a member of SIPTU shall we...
Anyways, this is way off topic so I'll leave it at that.
Last edited by dahamsta; 25/09/2007 at 5:42 PM.
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