QuoteAh so you do post here...Originally Posted by NY Hoop
I can smell scum miles away! Not doing too much "planning" are you?
KOH
I can smell scum miles away! Not doing too much "planning" are you?
KOH
Ah so you do post here...I can smell scum miles away! Not doing too much "planning" are you?
KOH
TO TELL THE TRUTH IS REVOLUTIONARY
The ONLY foot.ie user with a type of logic named after them!
All of this has happened before. All of it will happen again.
A civil servant who started work post 6 April 1995 (a lot of civil servants posting here) earning 35k with 40 years service is entitled to a pension of 7k, they are also entitled to just under 11k contributary pension (if they meet the requirements) - this element was not taken into account by Calcio Jack.
An EO retiring on 45k (same conditions as above) will be entitled to a pension of 11.5k, they are also entitled to just under 11k contributary pension.
Carclio Jacks figures are way off!
Its easy to shout abuse at the ref - how would you like it if he did it back?
A few things...
1) Pensions
Civil Servants pay into their pensions. These are defined benefit schemes. Many in the Private Sector also have defined benefit schemes, it is not restricted to Public Servants. Indeed, that is what the recent strike in Bank Of Ireland (that well known arm of the public service) was about - they were trying to close the defined benefit scheme for new members.
People seem to be confusing contributory and non contributory pensions. These are the state scheme's paid into based on your PRSI rate. In recent years, new starters in the Civil and Public Service pay stamps at the A1 rate, and so contribute to a state pension too, with a reduction in their company pension.
If Private Sector workers want to look for inequities in their pensions, they would perhaps be better looking at the top of their own organisations. Massive pensions, little contribution, and most definitely defined benefit.
2) Organisation of Foreign Workers
Can only speak for my own union, but organisation of immigrant workers is seen as the big challenge at the moment. Leaflets are produced in several different languages with the focus on workers rights and health and safety more so than recruitment. It is about the foreign workers having their legal entitlements and not being exploited - under cutting of agreed rates and conditions is exploitation.
3) Mismanagement of the Public Service
The top of the Civil and Public Service are the ministers responsible for which ever Department. The top Civil Servants are Political Appointee's. Given which party has been in Government for 18 of the last 20 years, you just have to look around the cabinet table for any mismanagement of the Public Service. Indeed, political interference is rife in decisions and recruitments right down as far as clerical officers - hence the push by Unions for competence based selection processes.
Last edited by Macy; 22/01/2007 at 10:14 AM.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Here's a link to a detailed analysis of the differentials between public and private sector pay and pensions. Doesn't cover issues such as security of employment and other conditions such as leave entitlements etc but it is one of the better articles on the matter;
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusin...10006397.shtml
Cork City FC
Interesting figures. Why do we have benchmarking?O'Leary says that the Public Sector Benchmarking Body never published its research results and at no stage in its 278-page report did it explicitly state or opine that public sector pay had fallen behind that in the private sector.
In a weekly market comment, Davy said that figures from the CSO (Central Statistics Office) indicated that average earnings in the public sector are now more than €43,000 a year. This compares with €33,500 in the private sector (industrial, construction, distribution and other sectors).
FFS pete, how many times have you been told that thos figures include the very top civil servants earning well into 6 figures. The average wage for the vast, vast majorityof civil servants is lower than their private sector equivalents.
The government appointed public servants macy mention accountted for the biggest increases in the last round of benchmarking, and of course it was politcally motivated.
54,321 sold - wws will never die - ***
---
New blog if anyone's interested - http://loihistory.wordpress.com/
LOI section on balls.ie - http://balls.ie/league-of-ireland/
Are you saying that private sector averages do not include high earners into the 6 figures?
I was criticised for not backing up my claims so I presume you can back that up?
If you had read the report and the article it clearly states "civil servants earned more than 13 per cent more than their private sector counterparts on a like for like basis in 2001 ", "another discovery was that this differnential was significantly larger at the bottom than the top" which is in complete contradiction to the claims made here.
Another point made was that since 2001 this differntial was made even larger by benchmarking.
Even Joan Bruton (Labour spokeswoman on Finance) called for benchmarking to be made much more transparent.
Cork City FC
I'm saying they do, and they also include people on minimum wage. A far better survey would be comparing like with like. Officer worker to office worker. People who work on public counters in public service with people who work in public counters in banks etc.Are you saying that private sector averages do not include high earners into the 6 figures?
When I get the chance.I was criticised for not backing up my claims so I presume you can back that up?
rebs23, the point above is the smae answer I'd give you. On a completely like for like basis (qualifications, experience) public servants earn less.
54,321 sold - wws will never die - ***
---
New blog if anyone's interested - http://loihistory.wordpress.com/
LOI section on balls.ie - http://balls.ie/league-of-ireland/
Qualifications don't matter a bit. Just because someone has a Masters in Celtic Studies & working on Social Welfare counter does not mean you can compare with private sector employee with Economics Masters working as an Investment Banker. You compare job role v job role which is where rebs23 quote comes in & this is directly from the Benchmarking Report.
Pete likes to be selective in what he sees in our posts and what he doesn't so theres no point in providing him with the facts. He'll just ignore them if they don't fit his arguement.
TO TELL THE TRUTH IS REVOLUTIONARY
The ONLY foot.ie user with a type of logic named after them!
All of this has happened before. All of it will happen again.
Yes, I ignore union researched facts as they biased. I think if anything the benchmark board biased towards the public sector as they constructed it.
I never quoted any Union researched facts. All pay rates I gave you were from official departmental documents which legally have to be correct.
Your tactic in a debate is always, when some inconvinient facts get in the way of your arguement, wait a few weeks then make the same arguement again hoping everyone has forgotten that it was refuted.
TO TELL THE TRUTH IS REVOLUTIONARY
The ONLY foot.ie user with a type of logic named after them!
All of this has happened before. All of it will happen again.
http://www.ireland.com/business/economy/economy1403.htm
Another analysis of the differences claiming that public sector workers at the lower skill level are better paid than their private sector counterparts.
http://www.esri.ie/publications/late...ex.xml?id=2088
Another report from the ESRI on the same issue with largely the same conclusions on a like for like basis Public Sector earn more.
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusin...10006397.shtml
Same as above.
And finally the most recent document from the CSO on the matter
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublicatio.../psempearn.pdf
Is the argument settled yet or are we going to go round in circles all day?
Lads you should be rejoicing in your status! Accept your privilaged position at the top of the pile amongst the working classes!!Why deny it?
Cork City FC
Peadar's twaddle moved here.
Ok Peadar
In 1995 the conditions of employment of Civil Servants changed and people recruited from then on paid A1 Class PRSI Contributions. This means that over time , unlike Civil Servants recruited before that date, these new Civil Servants would be entitled to the full range of Social Welfare Benefits.
Previously recruited Civil Servants paid Class B1 which did not entitle them to many Social Welfare Payments including Unemployment Benefit . This meant they could not be made redundant unlike the ones recruited since 1995.
Which simply means that the Civil Service has built into it's make up the capacity to downsize in future just like your employer will be able to do at some future point throwing you onto the scrapheap, and get the job done cheaper in India
Pete, I gave you more credit than to keep going back to the discredited arguements using average pay as the basis.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
It says that this is the case in other markets, without giving any figures for Ireland to back up that claim, and that isn't in the report your man is analysing - he's just throwing that in himself.
A report on Graduates over 3 years, so a small sector, and involves a lot of professions that have little scope for increase. e.g. Teachers and Nurses who may start at a higher level, but have very restricted grades. Incidentally, also says in the conclusions that you can't use average pay as a comparison.
Yeah, lots of headlines, and lots averages (pay, pensions etc), and research by the same bloke above who essentially says that they're making assumptions on data that wasn't even collected for the purpose that they used it for.
Could you point out where the comparison to equivalent Private Sector employments is in this document, or are you going on the average pay at the top, which one of your earlier links said was wrong to use?
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
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