Public v Private Sector Debate

[Peadar]

...just like your employer will be able to do at some future point throwing you onto the scrapheap, and get the job done cheaper in India

That doesn't bother me because they'd have to move all the Indians to Ireland, in order to replace people in my profession. True to your nature, you make false assumptions about me.

[Dodge]

And you don't make any assumptions at all Peadar?

[Peadar]

And you don't make any assumptions at all Peadar?

I'm better place to make assumptions about a sector that I've served for 8 years, than someone who has never met me, is to make assumptions about me.

[Dodge]

Relax, I was kidding...

[pete]

Can someone point me those surveys which said public service pay less than private? I thought there were some links but did they get moved?

If we do not use average wages then surely need to compare like with like?

Public Sector Pay 20% higher than Private Sector

Public sector workers are becoming the new rich with average annual earnings of €46,000. More and more professionals are turning to the public sector for financial security and work life balance.

A report by Davy Stockbrokers last year found that public sector pay was, on average, about 20 per cent higher than private sector pay. The average public servant now earns more than €45,000 a year, compared to the average industrial wage of €31,000. And figures just released from the CSO confirm their annual earnings are just under €46,000.

To claim that the public sector is top loaded with high earners is a ludicrous assumption as this suggests that no high earners in the private sector.

[BohsPartisan]

To claim that the public sector is top loaded with high earners is a ludicrous assumption as this suggests that no high earners in the private sector.

But thats exactly what your link shows!

Garda
€1,132.75 a week

Prison officer
€1,165.97 a week

Administrative civil servant
€808.72 a week

Primary school teacher
€821.38 a week

Secondary school teacher
€1,000 a week

Defence forces
€736.72 a week

These are all special cases. Also factor in TD's and particularly cabinet members.
I'm not sure what an administrative civil servant is supposed to be I.E. are they talking about all grades?
I have told you what CO's and EO's earn, and they are the majority of civil servants. As far as I'm concerned that ends the pay arguement. It is fact that the majority of people working in the civil service start out on €415 per week and over the course of 15 years will recieve incriments to bring them up to €672 per week.
An executive officer starts at €548 per week and can work up to €870 over 15 years.
However at the higher end of the service things are very different:
SECRETARY GENERAL €197,233


DEPUTY SECRETARY €157,786


ASSISTANT SECRETARY €116,462 €122,095 €127,732 €133,367

If you doubt this you can email payscales@finance.gov.ie to hear it from the horses mouth.

[pete]

ESRI Report (pdf)

I think we can all agree the ESRI an Independent Body so as unbiased we going to get. According to this report in 2003:
- Public pay was 39% higher per hour when compared graduate with 3 years experience.
- Even when compare gross monthly wages its 19% higher as private work 5 more hours per week than public.
- The wage differential is higher for women over men.

Can someone point me towards that civil service job site again?

[Peadar]

If you doubt this you can email payscales@finance.gov.ie to hear it from the horses mouth.

Sending an e-mail to a civil servant can only yeild a biased response!

[BohsPartisan]

Sending an e-mail to a civil servant can only yeild a biased response!

Don't be ridiculous.

[Macy]

I think we can all agree the ESRI an Independent Body so as unbiased we going to get.

Unbiased as we are going to get, but not unbiased, but anyway...

A simple comparison of average earnings in the two sectors can be misleading because of the underlying differences in the composition of the two sectors

So can we take it you won't be using average pay comparisons again?

Over half of all public sector workers are in professional occupations compared to about 12% in the private sector, and about half of public sector workers have a third level qualification, compared to one quarter of private sector workers

So public sector workers are more qualified, so likely that they can be earning less like for like against private sector equivalents.

It should be acknowledged that our analysis is confined to the early stages of careers. As such, it tells us nothing about subsequent wage movements, and how the public sector wage gap may develop later in graduates career

The pay scale structure certainly restricts wage growth. Take for example accountancy - you'll get an extra increment for qualifying in the public sector, but in private industry you'll get a significant promotion. Or teachers and nurses for example, who have limited opportunity to move to different pay scales, especially in 3 years. 3 years is an extremely short time frame. Not really enough to take into account post graduate professional qualifications. Make it 10 years and then there would be merit to the study.

[pete]

So can we take it you won't be using average pay comparisons again?

Come on Macy. I was accused of using the same line about averages so I did my research & proved conclusively with numbers not opinions.

The ESRI compared people with same experience, same education & found massive differences in pay. 39% higher wage per hour is massive. Even at gross salry 19% is huge. This just compares basic salary & does not include anything about perks etc... Is this not what you asked for? You cannot say public sector restricted by certain factors without mentioning the advantages - this is why the ESRI picked graduate with 3 years experience.



I honestly never expected pay difference to be large & not know why so many people joining the public sector in recent years. I would not have thought about the public sector before but certainly would consider now.

[BohsPartisan]

This just compares basic salary & does not include anything about perks etc.

What PERKS???


Did you look at the pay rates I showed above? Yet you choose to ignore the FACTS again!

[Macy]

Come on Macy. I was accused of using the same line about averages so I did my research & proved conclusively with numbers not opinions.

On that I was just making the point that even the ERSI say that average pay is a nonsense. They'd be better telling IBEC and media though I suppose

The ESRI compared people with same experience, same education & found massive differences in pay. 39% higher wage per hour is massive. Even at gross salry 19% is huge. This just compares basic salary & does not include anything about perks etc... Is this not what you asked for? You cannot say public sector restricted by certain factors without mentioning the advantages - this is why the ESRI picked graduate with 3 years experience.

I've always argued there's advantages to working in the public sector - it's quality of life over pay. Certainly at my grade with my qualifications. I really don't think 3 years is enough of a timescale to prove this one way or the other tbh.

I honestly never expected pay difference to be large & not know why so many people joining the public sector in recent years. I would not have thought about the public sector before but certainly would consider now.

It isn't. I doubt you're within 3 years of graduation for starters, but go for it and see.

[pete]

It isn't. I doubt you're within 3 years of graduation for starters, but go for it and see.

I would have thought i'd proven my immaturity by now.

[rebs23]

Lads point to the independant reports that say Public Sector is less than Private Sector. Please post links from indelpendant analysis such as that from the ESRI, CSO etc, etc. You can't because it doesn't exist.
We have been asked to post links to back up points and arguments.

Heres a final quote on the issue from Industrial Relations News. I can't post a link because its subscription based magazine for those working in the field but its generally accepted that its very trade union friendly to say the least.

All trade union officials will also privately admit to this differential "on a like for like basis" and also that it is causing tensions within their own unions.

"New pay survey points to 40% public/private pay gap

TONY DOBBINS
A major new national pay survey by the Central Statistics Office suggests that public sector workers earn 40% more on average than private sector workers.

The finding in the CSO National Employment Survey 2003

The finding that public sector employees are, on average, much better paid than private sector employees, was also the conclusion in a study carried out by economist Jim O’Leary and colleagues at Maynooth University in 2000. The authors concluded that the pay differential between public and private sector employees in the year 2000, in terms of average gross monthly earnings, amounted to 42% (see IRN 18/04).

BETTER QUALIFIED
However, the authors accepted that allowance should be made for the fact that public servants tend to be older, more experienced and better educated than employees in the private sector, on average. They “also tend to work in more highly skilled jobs and in bigger establishments.” But even taking this into account, public sector employees, in 2000, enjoyed a monthly earnings premium of almost 11%, it was argued.

And this was back in 2000, before the main chunk of the benchmarking pay hikes came on stream in January 2004."

[CollegeTillIDie]

Well one fact is that the Board of Directors of many private sector companies award themselves sick bonuses in good years well into six figures. This is at the same time as their workers are not that well paid.

The Department Secretaries and Higher level Civil Servants do not have those
when tax revenues are surprisingly buoyant.

[TonyD]

Holy Cow I've just discovered this thread, and I can't believe some of the rubbish spouted by the private sector brigade. Civil servants are all useless dossers, while all private sectors workers are models of diligence, professionalism and dedication ? Do you really believe that nonsense lads. Cop on, please. The very fact that so many of the private sector warriors believe that civil servants pay no pension contributions just summed up your ignorance for me. ALL Civil Servants pay towards their pension. As someone sensibly pointed out, there are hard workers, and dossers, in both sectors, but I'll willingly put the standards of professionalism, dedication and ability of ANY department or section I've worked in (and yes, there have been a few before anyone asks ) up against anything the Private Sector has to offer. Contrary to the belief of all you little Michael O'Learys out there, Civil Servants have workloads, and deadlines, just like everyone else. (Plus, we have to put up with attitudes like those on display from some people here, not to mention remarks like "I pay your wages you know" - those immortal words were actually issued to me once believe it or not) One more point BTW, Peadar, you do realise that if you're working under contract for a Government Dept (which seems to be your situation unless I've read your posts wrong) that ultimately that's taxpayers money you're getting. For Shame, how can you live with yourself

(btw - I neither read or replied to this during working hours - far too busy)

[Macy]

Lads point to the independant reports that say Public Sector is less than Private Sector.

The bench marking process was the biggest investigation carried out on a like for like basis. And it was criticised for not delivering enough by many public sector workers - hence the next round which may deliver no increase if like for like it's found that the public sector is better off. We've had the process that has proved our case, it's just the right wing and business organisations that haven't accepted it.

All trade union officials will also privately admit to this differential "on a like for like basis" and also that it is causing tensions within their own unions.

Well a fella from IBEC told me in the pub that they know it's a nonsense arguement and it's only a stick to beat unionised employments with.

on average

[B]But even taking this into account, public sector employees, in 2000, enjoyed a monthly earnings premium of almost 11%, it was argued.

It was argued, but not backed up by any stats, clearly. Well certainly none that they were confident enough to use.

[BohsPartisan]

Lads point to the independant reports that say Public Sector is less than Private Sector. Please post links from indelpendant analysis such as that from the ESRI, CSO etc, etc. You can't because it doesn't exist.

I gave you actual pay rates. I gave you an email address for further info.
Secondly the ESRI is not "independant". It is an ideologically driven right wing "think tank"

[pete]

Lads point to the independant reports that say Public Sector is less than Private Sector. Please post links from indelpendant analysis such as that from the ESRI, CSO etc, etc. You can't because it doesn't exist.
We have been asked to post links to back up points and arguments.

I provided the best most unbiased report on like for like comparison & still the public service lobby move the goal posts.

You can provide rates of pay for Admin Secretarys but what is the equivalent roile in the private sector? Those grades make no sense to me either as same role does not exist in the private sector...

Public Service Managers (e.g. Garda Commissioner) now get bonuses just like in the private sector.