Public v Private Sector Debate

[pete]

This debate seems to be missing one major issue, that is the hidden but hugely beneficial perk that public servants accrue under their pension schemes.
Again at a risk of been accused of generalising a civil servant gets gratis a pension of 2/3rd of their final salary upon retirement. The cost of funding that (assuming a salary of €35k) if you worked in the private sector is €12k per year assuming you started funding for it at age 20 annd retired at 60.

Good point which I tried to raise but I do not have the figures. I am not sure how you worked it out but little chance my contributory pension has any hope of matching anything like that.

21k for starting job out of school seems quiet good. Add on 1/3rd free pension top up plus various perks like career breaks.

[rebs23]

We've already dealt with this at length:
Here and here.

Yes indeed we have and you have completely refused to accept the statistics available from both the CSO and the ESRI on comparisons on a like for like basis. I have posted links on this before and will search for them again.

Are you really trying to convince us that the overall terms and conditions of employment available in the public sector are lower than those in the private sector? The Pension provisions, the leave provisions, security of employment, the seemingly inability to get sacked, the increases above partnership, etc, etc.

I thought this would prove your point and use it as an argument in favour of unionisation!

[BohsPartisan]

so in real terms if you examine it closely Civil Servants do receive a better slary than your avarage private worker, they also enjoy much better terms & conditions (eg flexi time, length of hols and of course for life job security)

So you're including pensions? Well if I make it to retirement I reckon I'll deserve it. As for you guys moaning about it, get off your asses get organised and fight for it!

Are you really trying to convince us that the overall terms and conditions of employment available in the public sector are lower than those in the private sector? The Pension provisions, the leave provisions, security of employment, the seemingly inability to get sacked, the increases above partnership, etc, etc.

What increases above partnership. Are you talking benchmarking? For the average CO that meant an average days bus fare per week! As for the pensions, see above. Inability to get sacked? Well if the prophets of the private sector here are to be believed they'd walk into another job tomorrow if they got sacked and we'd be unemployable so maybe its just as well.

If we're talking pay though, and you can't pay your mortgage or your bills on the basis of something you're going to get in 35 years time, then the figures I produced talk for themselves.
I'm against benchmarking as it happens but not for the same reason as you lot. Because its rubbish and does nothing but increase the wage gap between the lower and higher civil servants. Its simply not a good deal for the lower grades. The reports that proliferate the media of public sector "pay bonazas" are propaganda to drive a wedge between private and public sector workers. Its so, if they decide not to pay us phase two of benchmarking, the public will support them.

various perks like career breaks.

I know people in the private sector who took career breaks.

[pete]

If we're talking pay though, and you can't pay your mortgage or your bills on the basis of something you're going to get in 35 years time, then the figures I produced talk for themselves.

Only someone who did not have to pay for his pension would make some a ludicrous statement. People in the real world need to take money out of their wages & put into a thing called a pension fund so they can plan for their retirement.

Public service non-contributory pensions are easily worth an extra 20% on top of gross pay. Its so good few private sector people could afford unless company was contributing a large chunk.

I'm against benchmarking as it happens but not for the same reason as you lot. Because its rubbish and does nothing but increase the wage gap between the lower and higher civil servants. Its simply not a good deal for the lower grades. The reports that proliferate the media of public sector "pay bonazas" are propaganda to drive a wedge between private and public sector workers.

Benchmarking was "introduced" as someone said couldn't fill public service jobs as they under paid. Now too many people applying for public sector jobs.

Unions confuse me. If they are democratic surely the majority (lower grades) will vote for a pay deal that favours them over the minority (higher grades).

[BohsPartisan]

Only someone who did not have to pay for his pension would make some a ludicrous statement.

Eh I do pay for my pension. Would you like to see my payslips? It comes out fortnightly. Plus as I was 28 when I joined the service, I will have to buy back years, I.E. increase my contributions to get my full pension. At the moment I can't afford that but I'll have to start thinking about it soon. Pete, you should get your facts straight before getting the villagers together with the torches and the pitchforks and the yeehaw we's gonna lynch us some pretty boy civil servants.

Unions confuse me. If they are democratic surely the majority (lower grades) will vote for a pay deal that favours them over the minority (higher grades).

Because they are sold a pup by the leadership and told A. They are getting a good deal or B. There is no alternative.

[pete]

Eh I do pay for my pension.

Therefore yours is not a non-contributory pension.

Because they are sold a pup by the leadership and told A. They are getting a good deal or B. There is no alternative.

Union members exploited by their leaders? Seems to be no point to unions then is no real vote?

[BohsPartisan]

Union members exploited by their leaders? Seems to be no point to unions then is no real vote?

Getting a sense of Deja Vu here Pete. Didn't we have the corrupt union leaders discussion before and agree on something for a change.
Where I disagree is when you say we should abandon our unions. For one, if we did we'd be forgetting about any of the "perks" you mentioned, any payrises etc. Secondly, I and people like me believe in reclaiming the unions, fighting to make them more democratic and actually do what they're supposed to.

[Calcio Jack]

[QUOTE=BohsPartisan;606746]Eh I do pay for my pension. Would you like to see my payslips? It comes out fortnightly. Plus as I was 28 when I joined the service, I will have to buy back years, I.E. increase my contributions to get my full pension. At the moment I can't afford that but I'll have to start thinking about it soon. Pete, you should get your facts straight before getting the villagers together with the torches and the pitchforks and the yeehaw we's gonna lynch us some pretty boy civil servants.

You may indeed make a contribution towards your pension... my main point was to take an example of two people aged 20 , one commences working in the p/sector the other in the public sector. That is a like for like comparison and it is clar from it that the public sector employee is much better off. IMO you have to take into account the "benefit" of not having to pay any (as is the case for a huge % of public servs) cost of their pension as equating to salary. Indeed during the last benchmarking examination, one well known economist resigned from the working party becasue the terms of ref didn't include the "value" of pension accruing free to public sector workers... for what it is worth on average that value works out at around 30% of ones salary.

[Dodge]

This argument has gotten way off track.

For me a couple of things are clear.
1) Private sector pay is substantially better
2) Public sector conditions are better (despite what Pete said in the original thread )

The thread came about because peadar thinks Public sector workers are on a permanent doss, which is patently untrue. As is the fact that all private sector workers are hard working honest citizens. There are good and bad on each side and the problems affecting the public service plague all large organisations.

[BohsPartisan]

IMO you have to take into account the "benefit" of not having to pay any (as is the case for a huge % of public servs) cost of their pension as equating to salary.

Who doesn't have to pay any of the cost of their pension? Not civil servants. I know people who have been in the service since the '60's and they all pay.

1) Private sector pay is substantially better
2) Public sector conditions are better

Spot on, though or conditions are constantly being eroded via "modernisation" (I'd call it "victorianisation")

Pete, I get the impression you'd like a leveling of the playing field when it comes to conditions between the two sectors. I agree, thing is I feel you'd like to drag us down to the Private sector's level where as I say, people in the Private sector should get organised and bring themselves up to our level.

The thread came about because peadar thinks Public sector workers are on a permanent doss, which is patently untrue. As is the fact that all private sector workers are hard working honest citizens. There are good and bad on each side and the problems affecting the public service plague all large organisations.

A sublime moment of clarity.

[pete]

Pete, I get the impression you'd like a leveling of the playing field when it comes to conditions between the two sectors. I agree, thing is I feel you'd like to drag us down to the Private sector's level where as I say, people in the Private sector should get organised and bring themselves up to our level.

Not really I'd just like some realism. Public Sector people shouldn't be claiming they down trodden & underpaid just the same as the private sector. There is absolutely no doubt that the public sector have better conditions with better pensions, will always get a pay increase & basically jobs for life of some description. On the other hand depending on the job some private sector people may be able to get bonuses & while they might have drop in salary or pay freeze in the bad times they can get big increases in the good times.

I dislike benchmarking as it tried to equate the public sector to the private but they two different animals. What private sector job can you match a teacher to when he/she gets 4 months holidays. Obviously schools can't open for 11 months a year but likewise can't expect to earn same as someone with 1 month holiday.

[BohsPartisan]

Not really I'd just like some realism. Public Sector people shouldn't be claiming they down trodden & underpaid just the same as the private sector.

No one was claiming that. This started from your ridiculous claim that we are better paid.

On the other hand depending on the job some private sector people may be able to get bonuses & while they might have drop in salary or pay freeze in the bad times they can get big increases in the good times.

And thats why they need to organise and fight against these attacks. Workers did it in the past they can do it again.

What private sector job can you match a teacher to when he/she gets 4 months holidays. Obviously schools can't open for 11 months a year but likewise can't expect to earn same as someone with 1 month holiday.

Teachers have one of the most important jobs in society. Do you expect them to have to live four months a year without pay? Who would do the job then?

[pete]

Teachers have one of the most important jobs in society. Do you expect them to have to live four months a year without pay? Who would do the job then?

Never suggested that. Just saying that a teacher (not picking on them, just use as example as a different job) can't get same gross salary as a fulltime person.

[wws]

Pete

and others, your whole problem here in this discussion is that you believe that there are two, count them 2, types of job. There are a myriad of different jobs - and related terms of employment in what you call the 'public sector'. It renders most of your points meaningless. The differences are so vast between various jobholders that to draw conclusions based on public/private split is a futile exercise.

[BohsPartisan]

Never suggested that. Just saying that a teacher (not picking on them, just use as example as a different job) can't get same gross salary as a fulltime person.

Well then you are saying that. If teachers get less pay, people will stop being teachers and we'll have big problems in society.

[kingdom hoop]

speaking of big problems in society, i came across an article yesterday from the world economic freedom report that criticises labour markets in western europe and amongst other things is critical of public sector pensions. be wary though, bohs partisan et al this carries a health warning as it takes a free market capitalist viewpoint, anti government intervention. its quite long so you'd probabaly be better off printing it and reading it at lunch http://www.heritage.org/research/fea.../Index2007.pdf pages 45-54 of 425

[Dodge]

There is absolutely no doubt that the public sector have better conditions with better pensions, will always get a pay increase & basically jobs for life of some description

I know dozens who didn't get pay rises (different departments) due to performance and I know a couple who've been sacked so your arguement is out the window pete

[BohsPartisan]

be wary though, bohs partisan et al this carries a health warning as it takes a free market capitalist viewpoint, anti government intervention.

Yeah these right-wing economic "think tanks" are always urging attacks on public sector jobs. In France, Britain, Germany and other European countries governments have been acting on this "advise". The result has been that all accross Europe, sections of society that once saw themselves as middle-class have become the most militant sections of the working class. They haven't stepped it up here yet but its only a matter of time.

[NY Hoop]

Good point which I tried to raise but I do not have the figures. I am not sure how you worked it out but little chance my contributory pension has any hope of matching anything like that.

21k for starting job out of school seems quiet good. Add on 1/3rd free pension top up plus various perks like career breaks.

Perk is too strong of a word there. Private sector employees can also take career breaks in some instances. And you do know that career breaks are unpaid?!

Bohspartisan gandon must be very quiet these days

KOH

[BohsPartisan]

Perk is too strong of a word there. Private sector employees can also take career breaks in some instances. And you do know that career breaks are unpaid?!

Bohspartisan gandon must be very quiet these days

KOH

Not in Gandon, not anymore anyway. In AMD.

How do you know me?