Public v Private Sector Debate

[BohsPartisan]

now with huge labour mobility in the private sector people realise they can stand up and be counted without fear of not getting another job, or if they do a good job there is a good chance management well bow to their wishes or at least discuss the issue, unlike 100 years ago

That is simply not borne out by facts. There is a trend for new jobs to be un-unionised low paying with poor working conditions (this is a general trend-I'm sure people here can cite examples of their friend the accountant or the guy with the IT qualification-I'm talking in general) in the services sector. I have spoken to young workers in the course of "End Low Pay" campaigns, and unionisation campaigns who are terrified of their bosses finding out they spoke to us.

The system is run by Civil Servants!

have you dropped your ludicrous claims on pay Pete?

[kingdom hoop]

The system is run by Civil Servants!

That analogy is very eircomleague-esque. Clubs moaning about the way the eL run dispite the fact is was actually run by the clubs themselves.

oops!!

my opinions are also applicable to the private sector, its just easier to pick on the public sector..sorry boys, i might just have to revise my thoughts given the excellence of this site and its management
(nothing like a bit of plaumás to get out of a tricky situation)

[Peadar]

I have spoken to young workers in the course of "End Low Pay" campaigns, and unionisation campaigns who are terrified of their bosses finding out they spoke to us.

Damn right, they should be!
They know well they don't deserve more pay and therefore wouldn't bother asking their boss, but they sniff a chance to force the company to give them more, by talking to people in unions.

If I wasn't happy with the conditions in my job, I'd speak to my manager, failing that, I'd speak to his manager and would also have to option of speaking to HR. If none of that worked, I could go out and get another job, with a rival company.
Not because some union did something but because I'm an individual and can think for myself, allowing me to make my own decisions.

[pete]

have you dropped your ludicrous claims on pay Pete?

No. Like for like public sector jobs pay as much or more than private sector. Considering I would have no contributory pension & lot more perks I don't feel I would be financial worse off in the public sector. My job mobility might be limited though & also might be difficult to go back to the private sector if I choose, Remind me in a few years when ready to be out out to pasture

[kingdom hoop]

That is simply not borne out by facts.

its not borne out with facts, i was giving an opinion... i should have put in that people should realise they have other options outside of going to the union, they should be confident in their abilities and that they desrerve better. i fully accept unions are required in certain situations, but they have also lost their relevence compared to 100 years ago which was my point

[BohsPartisan]

No. Like for like public sector jobs pay as much or more than private sector.

Even though Macy and Myself have consistantly given figures to disprove that?

Remind me in a few years when ready to be out out to pasture

What

but they have also lost their relevence compared to 100 years ago which was my point

If there is a general tendency in society for wages to fall and hours at work to increase, therefore squeezing more out of wokers for less pay then Unions are as relevant as ever. Just a pity they are in the state they are in.

[paul_oshea]

Even though Macy and Myself have consistantly given figures to disprove that?

But you two both discredit figures/studies that come from the other side!!!

Remind me in a few years when ready to be out out to pasture

Its hard sometimes alright, but what he means is that when he is ready almost to retirement and the easy life, remind him then.

[dahamsta]

I want to see facts posted on the pay issue or I'm not allowing any more discussion on it. Pete, that means you. You made a claim, now back it up or drop it.

[BohsPartisan]

But you two both discredit figures/studies that come from the other side!!!

Er, because we have provided the actual figures for public sector pay.
Once again - Entry level pay for the grade that the majority of Civil servants are is €21,625.
With incriments it takes 13 years for that to rise to €35 grand. That is fact not some concocted average.

Average annual Earnings for All Employees in Banking, Insurance and Building Societies as of 2005 was €40,012
(Sourse: Central statistics office).
Disclaimer: I accept this is an average and all banking staff do not get this.

[kingdom hoop]

If there is a general tendency in society for wages to fall and hours at work to increase, therefore squeezing more out of wokers for less pay then Unions are as relevant as ever. Just a pity they are in the state they are in.

the keyword is the first; if
i know you have more anecdotal evidence but are wages really falling? also, you mention some 'end low pay' campaign, isnt our minimum wage amongst the highest in europe?

[paul_oshea]

How can you directly compare someone who leaves school does a few entry exams and starts on a basic salary to someone who spends to 4 - 5 years in a related field of study and then goes into that career? Also there aren't enough direct jobs related from one sector to the other.

I know from my school alone 15 ( out of 120+ )that went into it after school, whereas I had only started working 5 years later. I have only passed them out recently I reckon if even. so thats 5+ years on me, as well as expenses I incurred in Uni. these factors also have to be taken into account. I do know that not everyone within the public sector goes directly from school into civil service, nor do those who have worked in pubs and what not till 25 then decide to go into civil service, I know quite a few of these too.

I think the only ones that you can directly relate to are Consultants V Civil Service, as thats the only real inter-relation between too, in that case consultants win hands-down (in every sense ) in wages, but in related hours of work, where overtime and flexi-time don't exist, so it would average out about the same after total hours worked!!!

[Student Mullet]

Disclaimer: I accept this is an average and all banking staff do not get this.

The disclaimer somewhat invalidates your argument given that you were complaining about the same averages being applied to public workers.

Both sides to this argument have merit. There are certainly bad employers out there taking advantage of vulnerable workers and equally there are unions out there which act to protect bad working practices.

[BohsPartisan]

the keyword is the first; if
i know you have more anecdotal evidence but are wages really falling? also, you mention some 'end low pay' campaign, isnt our minimum wage amongst the highest in europe?

On average wages are rising. Not by much but yes they are rising. However the numbers of low pay jobs are also rising. So in effect the wealth gap is increasing.
On minimum wage, yes but prices are lower in most of those countries. Also under 18's have a much reduced minimum wage and there are more employers than you would think not paying it. I was personally threatened for outing employers who were paying below the minimum wage.

The disclaimer somewhat invalidates your argument given that you were complaining about the same averages being applied to public workers.

.

If my arguement was what you think it was.
My arguement is that you can make anything look good with averages.

[Peadar]

Here's a little article about public sector pay...

[paul_oshea]

in fairness how can you provide stats for the whole entry level of the private sector to compare to the 21k mentioned by bohs? the new minimum wage would work out around 17k for an average week, but an entry level pharmacist might earn 50k or more pete's point was that for whatever he does he would be better off, or not much worse off all things considered, in the public sector

Thats why im saying directly you could only really compare Civil servants to Consultants, where they both do directly the same sort of work at different points in time.

[BohsPartisan]

Thats why im saying directly you could only really compare Civil servants to Consultants, where they both do directly the same sort of work at different points in time.

Well then you'd have to say the civil servants would come of worse than the consultants.

Here's a little article about public sector pay...

Wages in the public sector rose by more than 6 per cent last year, bringing average pay in the public sector (excluding health) to more than €45,000 a year, compared to the average industrial wage of €31,000.

We've already dealt with this at length:
Here and here.

[paul_oshea]

Well then you'd have to say the civil servants would come of worse than the consultants.

Not if you include everything BOHS infairness.

[kingdom hoop]

[QUOTE=BohsPartisan;606536]

However the numbers of low pay jobs are also rising. So in effect the wealth gap is increasing.

Mostly foreign workers though? allowing irish people the opportunity to climb the wage ladder? not saying i dont care about foreigners but for one the unions havent actively sought to recruit them and secondly they are happy with their wage in comparison to what they'd get at home and a good few are likely to leave in the short term.

On minimum wage, yes but prices are lower in most of those countries.

it would be better to lower prices than increase wages, but thats all getting very complicated and would mean less tax income for the government to roll around in. by the way has the abolition of the groceries order had much effect i wonder

[Calcio Jack]

This debate seems to be missing one major issue, that is the hidden but hugely beneficial perk that public servants accrue under their pension schemes.

Again at a risk of been accused of generalising a civil servant gets gratis a pension of 2/3rd of their final salary upon retirement. The cost of funding that (assuming a salary of €35k) if you worked in the private sector is €12k per year assuming you started funding for it at age 20 annd retired at 60.

So when are the private sector workers going to cop on and realise that they are been hammered on 2 fronts ,firstly by their own employers who are forcing them to fund their own pensions and secondly by seeing their contribution to the exchequer used to fund the pension arrangement for ooo's of civil servants who for the most part don't pay any pension contributions or top rate 6% prsi...... so in real terms if you examine it closely Civil Servants do receive a better slary than your avarage private worker, they also enjoy much better terms & conditions (eg flexi time, length of hols and of course for life job security)... we're operatring a two tier society for workers and don't expect any of our politicians to change that since they of course also benefit from the aforementioned perks in addition to their unique extra one ie they are entitled to receive half of their salary tax free !!

[Dodge]

How can you directly compare someone who leaves school does a few entry exams

Thought you said civil service jobs were hard to get.