Donegal Celtic

[David]

You know, I've been told to stay out of NI things, you know not coming from those parts, it's none of my business/you don't understand/won't find it in the books, etc. etc. But, tell, me, is that a serious question?

No I obviously know the answer but it is a serious point. As I stated both supports that days were bolstered by hangers on but particularly DC who at the time, and even now, have next to no support.

[David]

Nothing excuses the RUC for breaking their own guidelines regardless of how many were there. Remember these were there suposed forces of law and order.

BTW David where the UVF playing that day? Maybe that is why so many turned up at the Linfield end? Did the RUC fire plastic at them when they started fighting that day?

I have already accepted we had hangers on that day. However you are quite clearly trying to score cheap political points in this thread. All over the world police over react and act outside guidelines in difficult situations. Indeed I have suffered in this way at the hands of the RUC myself as a Linfield supporter. I recall the day of trouble at Windsor when Justin McBride was sent off when a friend and myself got out of the way to avoid the trouble only to receive a battering with a police baton for doing so and being forced to rejoin the mob but maybe that does not fit in with the cheap political points that you are attempting to score here, after all surely the RUC would never have treated a Protestant in such a way.

[lopez]

No I obviously know the answer but it is a serious point. As I stated both supports that days were bolstered by hangers on but particularly DC who at the time, and even now, have next to no support.

That's the one thing I remember from the time. Both sides support swelled that day. You're right about DC. As a club, it was virtually inconsequential. But many people from nationalist West Belfast saw this one occasion to adopt the Club as a substitute for Belfast Celtic or to fight their own ethnic battles on the back of a football game. The problem though for me, is that while both sets of supporters (or rather their hangers - on) were as bad as each other (I wasn't there but the game's violence made the media in Britain), the police were far from impartial that day.

[David]

That's the one thing I remember from the time. Both sides support swelled that day. You're right about DC. As a club, it was virtually inconsequential. But many people from nationalist West Belfast saw this one occasion to adopt the Club as a substitute for Belfast Celtic or to fight their own ethnic battles on the back of a football game. The problem though for me, is that while both sets of supporters (or rather their hangers - on) were as bad as each other (I wasn't there but the game's violence made the media in Britain), the police were far from impartial that day.

My recollection of that day, and I am going simply from being there and it was seventeen years ago, was that the trouble on the spion kop was of a far more serious nature.

[Mr_Parker]

My recollection of that day, and I am going simply from being there and it was seventeen years ago, was that the trouble on the spion kop was of a far more serious nature.

At the point were the plastics started to fired the trouble was on a par from each side with missles being exchanged between the stand and the terrace. The RUC then turned their plastic bullets in one direction only. I am not having any political digs just stating what I witnessed.

[Mr_Parker]

I have already accepted we had hangers on that day. However you are quite clearly trying to score cheap political points in this thread. All over the world police over react and act outside guidelines in difficult situations. Indeed I have suffered in this way at the hands of the RUC myself as a Linfield supporter. I recall the day of trouble at Windsor when Justin McBride was sent off when a friend and myself got out of the way to avoid the trouble only to receive a battering with a police baton for doing so and being forced to rejoin the mob but maybe that does not fit in with the cheap political points that you are attempting to score here, after all surely the RUC would never have treated a Protestant in such a way.

In all your years as a Linfield supporter how often were plastic bullets fired inside football grounds when there was touble involving Linfield supporters?

[David]

At the point were the plastics started to fired the trouble was on a par from each side with missles being exchanged between the stand and the terrace. The RUC then turned their plastic bullets in one direction only. I am not having any political digs just stating what I witnessed.

If you are not having political digs then maybe you should refrain from bringing incidents that have nothing whatsoebver to do with football into the argument. Would it not alos be fair to say that the RUC were coming under sustained attack from those on the Spionm Kop?

[David]

In all your years as a Linfield supporter how often were plastic bullets fired inside football grounds when there was touble involving Linfield supporters?

Never, although I feel the scale and seriousness of the trouble that day outweighs any other trouble that I have seen at a match in Northern Ireland.

[Mr_Parker]

If you are not having political digs then maybe you should refrain from bringing incidents that have nothing whatsoebver to do with football into the argument. Would it not alos be fair to say that the RUC were coming under sustained attack from those on the Spionm Kop?

No, at that point the RUC were in the middle of two sets of opposing fans who were stoning eachother. They decided to shoot at one set of supporters only.

As for bringing other incidents into it I merely directed people to go and search for other plastic bullet incidents to clarify a comment made in the thread. I did not make any direct comment on those matters.

[Mr_Parker]

Never, although I feel the scale and seriousness of the trouble that day outweighs any other trouble that I have seen at a match in Northern Ireland.

You see David, that is where my and many other supporters experiences differ. I have lost count of the number of games I have attended over that period of time when plastic bullets were fired into supporters. Every single one of them were when the RUC fired plastics at supporters of what were perceived to be Nationalist/Catholic supporters eg Donegal Celtic, Cliftonville and Glasgow Celtic.

I have also attended many other games eg Glentoran v Linfield when the rioting was as equal to many of the occassions when plastic were used but not once did I see the plastics brought out.

[David]

You see David, that is where my and many other supporters experiences differ. I have lost count of the number of games I have attended over that period of time when plastic bullets were fired into supporters. Every single one of them were when the RUC fired plastics at supporters of what were perceived to be Nationalist/Catholic supporters eg Donegal Celtic, Cliftonville and Glasgow Celtic.

I have also attended many other games eg Glentoran v Linfield when the rioting was as equal to many of the occassions when plastic were used but not once did I see the plastics brought out.

When the trouble is between Linfield and Glentoran the police do not usually come under attack, or certainly any sustained attack. Not the case I would suggest in the games that you mention. I never recall plastic bullets being used aginst Cliftonville supporters on the Spion Kop despite them attacking the police on many occasions. You see here is where I have my difficulty, you say you are not attempting to be political but basically almost every single post you have made alleges bias from the RUC against Nationalists. Not political eh?

[Mr_Parker]

When the trouble is between Linfield and Glentoran the police do not usually come under attack, or certainly any sustained attack. Not the case I would suggest in the games that you mention. I never recall plastic bullets being used aginst Cliftonville supporters on the Spion Kop despite them attacking the police on many occasions. You see here is where I have my difficulty, you say you are not attempting to be political but basically almost every single post you have made alleges bias from the RUC against Nationalists. Not political eh?

I was not making politics in regards to what I had previously mentioned but yes now in a football related context I am drawing the comparative treatment of fans of clubs of different pecieved backgrounds. what other conclusion can I come to.

As for plastics at Cliftonville games, I have experienced them at Solitude and Windsor not including the numerous occassions outside the ground. I actually had several kept as morbid souviners at one time.

Moreoften than not at Windsor the trouble would often start at half-time with the RUC sending in snatch squads to try and stop a Tricolour being displayed. I cannot recall the exact game or date infact thinking back it may have been at semis there not involving Linfield. As for Solitude two games come to mind when they were used. Celtic and Portadown.

[David]

I was not making politics in regards to what I had previously mentioned but yes now in a football related context I am drawing the comparative treatment of fans of clubs of different pecieved backgrounds. what other conclusion can I come to.

As for plastics at Cliftonville games, I have experienced them at Solitude and Windsor not including the numerous occassions outside the ground. I actually had several kept as morbid souviners at one time.

Moreoften than not at Windsor the trouble would often start at half-time with the RUC sending in snatch squads to try and stop a Tricolour being displayed. I cannot recall the exact game or date infact thinking back it may have been at semis there not involving Linfield. As for Solitude two games come to mind when they were used. Celtic and Portadown.

So you were clearly trying to make a political point? As for the trouble starting at half time were the police wrong in trying to uphold the law of the country? I believe at that time it was illegal to display a tricolour in those circumstances. It also seems I was right in that I never recall them being used against Cliftonville at Windsor when you were playing Linfield. At that point in time many amongst the Cliftonville support viewed the RUC as part of the "occupying forces" and often used football games to attack the police for political reasons. Can you really be surprised that they responded in this way?

[Mr_Parker]

So you were clearly trying to make a political point? As for the trouble starting at half time were the police wrong in trying to uphold the law of the country? I believe at that time it was illegal to display a tricolour in those circumstances. It also seems I was right in that I never recall them being used against Cliftonville at Windsor when you were playing Linfield. At that point in time many amongst the Cliftonville support viewed the RUC as part of the "occupying forces" and often used football games to attack the police for political reasons. Can you really be surprised that they responded in this way?

As I the topic has devloped yes I am now making a political point as it relates directly to IL football. How else can the use of plastic bullets be explained against one 'type' of fan and not another in similar circumstances. As for the reasoning for the police moving in in numbers into a crowd at a football match, wielding batons and firing plastics to apprehend one person with a flag has got to be questioned. It wasn't like it was that hard to identify the 'offender' and arrest him as he left the ground. The "law" you refer to was replaced in the mid 1980's yet the removal of flags at games continued.

[lopez]

So you were clearly trying to make a political point? As for the trouble starting at half time were the police wrong in trying to uphold the law of the country?...

The police would have done a better job at upholding 'the law of the country' by ensuring their informants didn't go on murder sprees, rather than provoking a riot by removing the flag of another EU member that this part of the UK seems to think it's OK to make it illegal to display.

[David]

Anyone wants to talk football I am happy to do so, not getting drawn into a political argument, this is not the place.

[paul_oshea]

david, but thats where it went by you saying against the law to display the tri-colour, you stepped into it by bringing thta up. surely you can see the point they are making?

I do see what you mean also, but I don't think their points can be avoided either.

[David]

david, but thats where it went by you saying against the law to display the tri-colour, you stepped into it by bringing thta up. surely you can see the point they are making?

I do see what you mean also, but I don't think their points can be avoided either.

The law of the country was, whether people disagree with it or not, that it was illegal to display a tricolour and the police took action against those that broke the law as was their job. Was reluctant to get drawn into a political argument but here is the way I see it. The RUC were a police force under more pressure than any police force in Europe at that time. Yes at times they went over the top, much the same as I would say the Portuguese police went over the top during Euro 2006 for example. Did they only go over the top against one side of the community? I can tell you now that as someone that has lived my entire life on the Shankill Road and attended Linfield matches for over 30 years that is quite simply not the case. I have seen police brutality against my community on many occasions and there would be as much resentment towards the police on the Shankill Road as there is on the Falls Road at times. The Protestant community however were never vociferous in their complaints against this, possibly in case they were seen as disloyal but I can assure you that more than one side of the community suffered from over the top policing. Maybe this post will get deleted and fair enough if it does but I was drawn into this so simply responded.

[lopez]

The law of the country was, whether people disagree with it or not, that it was illegal to display a tricolour and the police took action against those that broke the law as was their job. Was reluctant to get drawn into a political argument but here is the way I see it. The RUC were a police force under more pressure than any police force in Europe at that time. Yes at times they went over the top, much the same as I would say the Portuguese police went over the top during Euro 2006 for example. Did they only go over the top against one side of the community? I can tell you now that as someone that has lived my entire life on the Shankill Road and attended Linfield matches for over 30 years that is quite simply not the case. I have seen police brutality against my community on many occasions and there would be as much resentment towards the police on the Shankill Road as there is on the Falls Road at times. The Protestant community however were never vociferous in their complaints against this, possibly in case they were seen as disloyal but I can assure you that more than one side of the community suffered from over the top policing. Maybe this post will get deleted and fair enough if it does but I was drawn into this so simply responded.

Firstly, the last thing I suspect is that your posts are deleted, as you've not said anything that isn't untrue, let alone offensive.

However, while I've seen from the comfort of my armchair the RUC wading in on Unionists, the same sort of viciousness and number of injuries has not been the same with the other side. As you state, you've lived all your life in the Shankill Road so your experience would differ from a nationalist. Yes, the RUC were under more pressure than any other police force in the UK - I disagree about Europe as for instance the Guardia Civil and to a lesser extent, the Ertzaintza were/and still are under probably more pressure as the demarcation lines of communities were not there in the Basque country - but it still was an attractive job for people, many who were graduates, in NI.

Thirdly, rioting - away from football in particular - was worse with Nationalists. This was sometimes politically motivated, some would say cynically, from the earliest days, in a sort of baptism of fire of a good beating to ensure that there was a lasting hatred of the police in particular. However there is something that many Unionists seem to be in denial about and that is the insitutional sectarian bias of the RUC of the period which is well documented, and the main reason a new police force was formed. I'll give you one, potentially dangerous example.

After the 1988 North - Republic game, I and my mates were taken through an iron door in the 'peace' line beside the M1. On the other side were a number of patrol Land Rovers which walked us up the M1 towards the roundabout of Broadway. Police were on their knees and over bonnets with rifles aimed at the houses across the motorway, in what was presumably to counter sniper attack. The police never said anything to us. They just let us walk around their vehicles despite the obvious threat of being shot at. At Broadway I crossed the road and was on a footpath when a land rover drove at me at about 10-15mph to get past a another van that was used as a roadblock. No beeping, no slowing down, no concern that as the driver was on a pavement he might meet some pedestrians. Nothing but careless disregard. I had to dive out of the way. And all this despite the fact that there was no riot and no 'verbals' from any of us.