Indo story on new league

**NY Hoop** · 12/12/2006, 11:36 AM

McDonnell is a Dundalk fan. Tosh really bit it is the indo............

KOH

**dcfcsteve** · 12/12/2006, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Nobody buys a newspaper these days for news, its all about opinions.

Speak for yourself Dodge !

Some of us like to find out what's happening in the world without 'news' being hidden behind a writer's personal opinion, so we can then make uour own minds about what's happening....

**JW.** · 12/12/2006, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

In a world of Emmet malone's etc he's hardly unique.

I've just read the Times article on it today and the difference could hardly be more stark.

**Dodge** · 12/12/2006, 11:50 AM

Yeah Read it myself. Not denying malone's a better journalist. Jsut saying that he's not afraid to voice his opinions. maybe not on this topic but then thats the point I'm making

Oh and Steve most people get their news from TV, Radio and the INternet now. By the the time a newspaper comes out everybody already knows the story, they're looking for more than that (Investigation, background, context, opinions, analysis etc)

**JW.** · 12/12/2006, 11:55 AM

It turns out that this whole thing/thread has been based on something out of said journalist's hands. He just assured me that he had written two articles - one news, one opinion. It seems that the Indo hadn't space to publish the news piece, but just went with the opinion piece. That's how it seems anyway.
This is sloppy in my view but Dan would seem to be pretty much blameless as he wrote the piece as an opinion piece.

**seand** · 12/12/2006, 11:56 AM

As ever, there are several issues getting mixed up here.

1) JW's main gripe seems to be with the Indo and their standards of journalism. Yes it is an opinion piece rather than a news feature, and perhaps it should have been presented as such. However its pretty well written and fair, which is a lot more than one can reasonably expect from the Indo. Independent Newspapers are at the forefront of the media race to the gutter in Ireland. Tabloidism has won, the Irish Times is slowly slipping in the same direction.

2) The whole situation IS a farce. Just because clubs were bullied into it and have known (or should have known) that it was a farce does not mean that it is not a farce. If you don�t think the process is a farce try and explain it to a barstooler or GAA head.

**dcfcsteve** · 12/12/2006, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Oh and Steve most people get their news from TV, Radio and the INternet now. By the the time a newspaper comes out everybody already knows the story, they're looking for more than that (Investigation, background, context, opinions, analysis etc)

That might reflect your motivation in buying a paper, but that doesn't make it reflective of everyone else !

By their very nature, TV/Radio/Internet only run with a relatively small number of key top stories. If you want a broader vioew of the news, you have to resort to papers. And that's before we even get onto the virtual dependency of loads of towns and areas on their local newspapers....

People who want opinions over news read tabloid rags. People who want news and opinion clearly delineated buy the traditional broadsheets/'quality' press'. The 2 styles of journalism are easily demarcated in that way, and should remain so.

**wws** · 12/12/2006, 11:56 AM

You've a strange attitude towards the Independent group from someone who is happy to take Sir Anthony's Shilling JW

with no conscience

the future of journalism is bleak....

**wws** · 12/12/2006, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by seand

As ever, there are several issues getting mixed up here.

1) JW's main gripe seems to be with the Indo and their standards of journalism. Yes it is an opinion piece rather than a news feature, and perhaps it should have been presented as such. However its pretty well written and fair, which is a lot more than one can reasonably expect from the Indo. Independent Newspapers are at the forefront of the media race to the gutter in Ireland. Tabloidism has won, the Irish Times is slowly slipping in the same direction.

2) The whole situation IS a farce. Just because clubs were bullied into it and have known (or should have known) that it was a farce does not mean that it is not a farce. If you don�t think the process is a farce try and explain it to a barstooler or GAA head.

Did ya ever hear of the words wheat and chaff?

This process marks a cut off point - and regardless of where the axe fell there was always going to be grumbles from the perceived losers

the reality is in a few weeks time this will all die down clubs will get on with it and it will be sink or swim time for those clubs and how they ultimately perform in the real world outside of the IAG room.

just get on with it ffs

**JW.** · 12/12/2006, 12:01 PM

I could libel you wws!

**dcfcsteve** · 12/12/2006, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by seand

2) If you don’t think the process is a farce try and explain it to a barstooler or GAA head.

It's dead easy to explain :

- Irish domestic football is essentially sh!te, as you know my barstool loving friend.
- It's current structure, facilities and administration are perpetuating its sh!tness.
- If left to sort itself out through the usual on-field criteria, it may never make the changes in facilities, structures and support that are required. Irish league football has been failing to upright the collapsed ship on its own for years now.
- The FAI therefore introduced a one-off exercise to aid that process.
- A mixture of on-and-off field criteria have been used to determine which teams in the league are best located, structured, funded and performing to operate at the highest level.
- The top ranking 12 teams from that process will be recognised for their efforts by being awarded a place at the highest level for season 2007.
- From then on, the usual rules of promotion and relegation will apply.
- This selection process is being supported through increased prize-money and central investment in facilities and staff in order to further boost the facilities and structures in the league.
- Essentially it's Irish league football's last chance to sort itself out. The FAI is assisting it to do so - but not without seeking to first address some of the fundamental problems that were holding it back in the first place.

I would suspect that the average person who currently knows or cares little about the EL would see the above broad process as eminently sensible.

**Dodge** · 12/12/2006, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

That might reflect your motivation in buying a paper, but that doesn't make it reflective of everyone else !

By their very nature, TV/Radio/Internet only run with a relatively small number of key top stories. If you want a broader vioew of the news, you have to resort to papers. And that's before we even get onto the virtual dependency of loads of towns and areas on their local newspapers....

People who want opinions over news read tabloid rags. People who want news and opinion clearly delineated buy the traditional broadsheets/'quality' press'. The 2 styles of journalism are easily demarcated in that way, and should remain so.

As usual Steve, you've taken it all far too literally and not shown one ounce of common sense. Obviously there are different rules for local and national newspapers but, honestly, when was the last time you read about some news item in a newspaper first (i.e. before TV, radio or internet onformed you?). Reading opinions does not automatically mean you must take them on board and every single broadsheet pays top wages for their political (and other areas) analysts and commentators so you can get down from your high horse on the broadsheet/tabloid debate.

Sales figures are down worldwide for all types of newspapers, the reasons are as I've outloned above. There's wall to wall news coverage in every other medium and newspapers now have to provide new services. Opinions is a small peice of that (not the main factor obviously)

And you think that newspapers have greater scope for news than the internet?

**wws** · 12/12/2006, 12:14 PM

It's dead easy to explain :

- Irish domestic football is essentially sh!te, as you know my barstool loving friend.

total rubbish - the only external objective measure - european competition - provides evidence of a gradual increase in playing standards when compared to our european peers - the graph is up

- It's current structure, facilities and administration are perpetuating its sh!tness.

yes, deffo

- If left to sort itself out through the usual on-field criteria, it may never make the changes in facilities, structures and support that are required. Irish league football has been failing to upright the collapsed ship on its own for years now.

its effectively a rebranding (it wont lead to any facilities being improved on its own)

- The FAI therefore introduced a one-off exercise to aid that process.
- A mixture of on-and-off field criteria have been used to determine which teams in the league are best located, structured, funded and performing to operate at the highest level.

but includes shelbourne and other rogue operators who may even go bust a la dublin city next season!

-

**JW.** · 12/12/2006, 12:17 PM

The league has made dramatic progress in the last three years or so and will continue to do so under the FAI league, in my view. It has not been in such a healthy state in three decades or so, arguably.

**Dodge** · 12/12/2006, 12:25 PM

The league champions of the past twos easons have been hit with 4 winding up orders between them. The facts disagree with you JW

**JW.** · 12/12/2006, 12:30 PM

Shels seem a somewhat exceptional case though Dodge with an exceptional character running the club. Practically every European league has a club in financial trouble. That can't detract from the progress that has been made.

**pineapple stu** · 12/12/2006, 12:33 PM

Ah now JW - I think you're letting your marron tinted glasses get in the way again.

I read the article - nothing particularly remarkable in it at all really. You complain that he uses words like "sadly", but then fail to note the context, which was along the lines of "sadly, the new league couldn't dawn without the usual bickering", etc - which is fact. It is sad that the FAI can't do something like this without bickering from clubs. He proposes a solution - i.e. reveal the breakdown - and then notes that the FAI have rejected this solution with a typically don't-care comment from Delaney - "We can't be going around revealing how clubs scored."

Can't believe there are still people who think this whole process is going to improve the league significantly.

And pete - a poll was carried out here when the jist of the proposal was made public at the start of the season. Support was somewhere in the 30% region.

**wws** · 12/12/2006, 12:35 PM

I think the distinction between "playing standards" (which have improved immeasurably over the years - and sky rocketed in the last 5) and off the pitch standards or structures has to be made

off the pitch is a disaster for all clubs as players are paid disproportionately to the income they're efforts are capable of generating

unfortunately some barstoolers and some journos (Mr The League is a Farce) confuse the two continually

we've never had it so good

**JW.** · 12/12/2006, 12:47 PM

Pineapple stu
Please stop accusing me of talking through maroon-tinted glasses. I'd be the first one to say we didn't deserve our place in this league if we were run as badly as we were under older administrations.
Also, the fact that Daniel actually wrote this as an opinion piece pretty much backs up what I said, even if it clearly wasn't his fault.

**pineapple stu** · 12/12/2006, 12:51 PM

You've clearly over-reacted, and your quotes are selective and have been largely debunked earlier in this thread. There is consternation, there is controversy, there is suspicion, there is a solution, it's been waived. The piece may be an opinion piece, but it is an accurate enough opinion piece, and the views have been echoed here numerous times by fans of numerous clubs, so they're clearly opinions which are held by many people. What more do you want?