Def Leppard on VH1 ...um.. Classic Albums? Surely there's been a mistake.

[sadloserkid]

It was dated the day they released it SLK. Manky pub rock dressed up spandex and poodle perms. You could likely interchange any song on it with anything Heart had out on their yoke and not notice. Christ you could interchange it with anything Bonnie Tyler was singing in a german beer garden at the time.

We don't like Bonnie Tyler now? Not even 'Total Eclipse...'?

Def Leppard were cheesy as hell for sure but whatever man, I wouldn't hold that against them. They were no less 'real' or 'credible' than say Nirvana ten years later.

And just to clarify, slk rates both The Stone Roses and Oasis to varying degrees and The Beatles and The Stones not at all.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Def Leppard were cheesy as hell for sure but whatever man, I wouldn't hold that against them. They were no less 'real' or 'credible' than say Nirvana ten years later.

Let 'em be cheesy as Gouda ...but the apostacy that Hysteria is a "classic album" in any sense beyond being a unit shifter shouldn't be allowed go unchallenged.
Interesting you mention Nirvana who actually released 'Nevermind' a mere four years after DL released Hysteria. (by which time Elliot and co. were asking an increasingly disinterested market if "a Rocks out of the question")

First off, I wouldn't qualify as a Nirvana "fan". Liked a few songs and thought they'd a good energy -but I dislike junkie glorification and I genuinely reckon if KC hadn't died then today we'd celebrate Nirvanas canon of work to not much greater extent than, say, Soundgarden.

BUT what separates Hysteria from Nevermind is that in fifty or a hundred years time the latter will still be considered a footnote and a marking post in the history of late 20th Century music culture and the former will only pop up in VH1s classic albums and occasionly in 100 worst haircuts of the (19)80's.

I remember hitching to Cork in early 1992 and sitting in a doorway on college road waiting for my girlfriend to came home and let me in. I read an interview in HP with Joe Elliot where he actually spoke about Nirvana and how the two bands compared. The fact that he went on the defensive and stated "I don't think they make us sound the way we made Rainbow sound" made me issue a hearty guffaw they'd have heard up in UCC as I suspect he feared that was exactly the case.

[sadloserkid]

First off, I wouldn't qualify as a Nirvana "fan". Liked a few songs and thought they'd a good energy -but I dislike junkie glorification and I genuinely reckon if KC hadn't died then today we'd celebrate Nirvanas canon of work to not much greater extent than, say, Soundgarden.

BUT what separates Hysteria from Nevermind is that in fifty or a hundred years time the latter will still be considered a footnote and a marking post in the history of late 20th Century music culture and the former will only pop up in VH1s classic albums and occasionly in 100 worst haircuts of the (19)80's.

I would contend that we'd be celebrating Nirvana's 'legacy' far less than that of the other three grunge heavyweights Alice In Chains, Pearl Jam and the afroementioned Soundgarden.

I disagree with your second point to be honest. I believe that 'Hysteria' will be remembered almost as significantly as 'Nevermind'. The 80s were an embarrassment in many respects for sure but aside from 'Appetite for Destruction' there's not many albums that encapsulated the era as well. It was a pretty horrible scene and if any single album by Motley Crue or Warrant or Ratt was given the position that 'Hysteria' enjoys critically today I'd be on your side of the argument right now. 'Hysteria' is a good record though when taken in context of the time time and place that it came from. It's not particularly groundbreaking or unforgetable but it's definitely a classic 1980's record. In fact give it 10 years and I would imagine that much of the disdain currently shown towards 80s pop culture will have diluted. Def Leppard will become Abba and Nirvana will occupy a position in the minds of the next generation of Lionel Ritchies as Def Leppard do in your own today.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I would contend that we'd be celebrating Nirvana's 'legacy' far less than that of the other three grunge heavyweights Alice In Chains, Pearl Jam and the afroementioned Soundgarden.

That'll require a thread split. I'm not debating it on a thread dedicated to giving Def Leppard a badly needed kicking.

I disagree with your second point to be honest. I believe that 'Hysteria' will be remembered almost as significantly as 'Nevermind'.

SOLVENT ABUSE KILLS!

By no means do I contend that Nirvana sat down and said "Lets' make a record that'll shift the polar axis of guitar based rock'n'roll, burns off the dead wood (like DL) and make the term 'heavy metal' redundant" ...but that's what happened -regardless of how much design or control Nirvana had over it.

Indie-kids listening to metal, metal kids listening to indie, genres forming, collapsing, merging... entire rosters of talentless poodle perms dropped and replaced with talentless lumberjack shirt wearers, Matt Dillon and Winona Ryder getting a gig in a dire romcom. None of those things happened in the wake of Hysteria.

The 80s were an embarrassment in many respects for sure but aside from 'Appetite for Destruction' there's not many albums that encapsulated the era as well.

Despite not being a fan of GNR -I find the guilt by assocciation with DL offensive on their behalf.

The two were on different planets in terms of perspective and herein lies the crux of my complaint about DL. Namely -all achievement should be measured against the background context in which such achievement is realised and the resources available to bring the achievement about. Appetite For Destruction was GNRs breakthrough record, Nevermind was Nirvanas breakthrough record, Hysteria was NOT DLs breakthrough record. It was a cynical commercial stab -every bit as much so as any Stock, Aitken and Waterman record out at the same time. Pyromania had been a huge hit for DL back in 83 ...other bands might've used the bargaining chips this would've earned them to push the envelope a bit. DL on the other hand chose to push Hysteria as far infield as possible. They weren't alone in doing so by any means ...far more talented people than them -Alice Cooper and Whitesnake come to mind -made equally vile but commercially huge records at the same time.

In fact give it 10 years and I would imagine that much of the disdain currently shown towards 80s pop culture will have diluted.

What disdain would that be? noughties Pop culture is obsessed with the '80's. From Sugababes to Franz Ferdinand, Marilyn Manson to Girls Aloud, The Killers to every second RNB (sic) record based on a Kool and The Gang sample.

That only failed boyband Zoo have chosen to revisit the work we're currently discussing is telling in terms of it's staying power ...do keep the candle burnin' mind

Def Leppard will become Abba and Nirvana will occupy a position in the minds of the next generation of Lionel Ritchies as Def Leppard do in your own today.

While I acknowledge your logic -I don't concur with it.

[noby]

The 80s were an embarrassment in many respects for sure but aside from 'Appetite for Destruction' there's not many albums that encapsulated the era as well.

As a stand-alone statement, I couldn't disagree more, but I presume you're talking within the context of whatever genre D.L. fall in to.

[CollegeTillIDie]

"Pyromania" is a far superior record to "Hysteria" even in the Def Leppard ouevre. My favourite song by the band would be " Foolin' " closely followed by " When Love and Hate Collide" , which are songs which have more than one dimension to them musically and show the potential versatility of the band. Met Joe Elliott on the ferry to Holyhead once, he was a gent, and more into talking about Sheffield United than music.

[TonyD]

Always liked Def Leppard. Sound lads one and all too. The only band from outside the US to ever have two consecutive albums sell over 10 million (or was it 15?) in the US. A lot of highly-rated (read over-rated) British acts like the the Beatles and The Stones and The Smiths have never managed it. Ditto for the likes of The Smiths, The Stone Roses and Oasis.

'Hysteria' is a classic. Dated for sure but a great album.

Oh, well if it sold over 10 Million it MUST be a great album, no more argument needed there surely (PS Beatles and Smiths over rated - my god, Children these days - cloth ears I tell ya)

[Lionel Ritchie]

Met Joe Elliott on the ferry to Holyhead once, he was a gent, and more into talking about Sheffield United than music.

Doesn't surprise me in the least. Some would opine he has no interest in music whatsoever

[sadloserkid]

(PS Beatles and Smiths over rated - my god, Children these days - cloth ears I tell ya)

The Smiths are a decent band... the cult of the Beatles on the other hand... the most inexplicable aspect of mankind's existence is that a group that are so bland and utterly meaningless can be hailed for being a second rate Kinks.

[Lionel Ritchie]

The Smiths are a decent band...

Jesus that's high praise. sure you don't want to qualify that on the basis they didn't sell much in amerikay?

the cult of the Beatles on the other hand... the most inexplicable aspect of mankind's existence is that a group that are so bland and utterly meaningless can be hailed for being a second rate Kinks

Not a huge Beatles fan myself (my one and a half year old loves them mind) but 'bland and meaningless'? Four seperate personalities all of whom could've done well had the beatles never happened? C'mon.

Steering this thing back OT...

The only thing I'll ever give Def Lep credit for is that they let Lefty McSouthpaw keep his job after he lost the arm. It betrays an underlying decency and genuine good naturedness not immediatley evident from the muck they ply. ...and it's not a charity job either -he can do the gig.

I do believe if it had been, say, a "proper" metal band like Metallica -a band I like btw, they'd have scratched their arses about it for a couple of weeks and then rationalised fcuking him out somehow being for his own good. Just a hunch.

[sadloserkid]

Jesus that's high praise. sure you don't want to qualify that on the basis they didn't sell much in amerikay?

No need really. What I will say is that if they were American they would have disappeared with nary a ripple on this side of the Atlantic as the British media loves nothing more than overhyping their own bands at the expense of all others and for some bizarre reason people in this country are happy to follow that trend. The current slew of crap British rock acts doing the rounds are testement to this.

Not a huge Beatles fan myself (my one and a half year old loves them mind) but 'bland and meaningless'? Four seperate personalities all of whom could've done well had the beatles never happened? C'mon.

I think they're pretty anonymous as a band. Four personalities I'll give you for sure but people would make the same argument for the likes of Robbie Williams and Pete Doherty and while I have more respect for The Beatles than that I still don't see much about them to get excited about. Maybe 'Yesterday'.

Steering this thing back OT...

The only thing I'll ever give Def Lep credit for is that they let Lefty McSouthpaw keep his job after he lost the arm. It betrays an underlying decency and genuine good naturedness not immediatley evident from the muck they ply. ...and it's not a charity job either -he can do the gig.

I do believe if it had been, say, a "proper" metal band like Metallica -a band I like btw, they'd have scratched their arses about it for a couple of weeks and then rationalised fcuking him out somehow being for his own good. Just a hunch.

Drummers union speaking there perhaps?

[Lionel Ritchie]

I think they're pretty anonymous as a band. Four personalities I'll give you for sure but people would make the same argument for the likes of Robbie Williams and Pete Doherty ....

Sorry I should've been a bit more specific in what I meant by 'personality' ...It's not that common to find a band where it's reasonable to assume all the members would've been succesful in other bands in any event (Led Zep style supergroups aside -as they were formed with guys already 'famous' to varying degrees.)

I think it's quite likely that Lennon and McCartney would've written hit records even if they'd never met. McCartney, while being considered the light weight of the two had a great 'pop sensibility'.

Harrison was a fine guitarist ...if he's not ranked up there with Beck, Clapton, Hendrix, Gilmour, Townshend -then it's down to the fact he had to effectively retire from playing live at the time those reputations were being made.

Ringo Starr was the drummers drummer. All his contemporaries, the drummers that are now considered the 'greats' -looked up to him ...Moon, Bonham, Mitchell, Paice, Mason ...even Watts and Baker who were older than him.

[paul_oshea]

ringo is sh1te, nothing difficult about any of the drumming he had to do.

btw lionel, my point about fatboy slim, was not what you were getting at, it was simply dance music that makes it big in britain is the only real influence big in america in the underground dance scene, therefore making it big in britain also ( generally ) means making it big in the states - dance music scene that is.

[Lionel Ritchie]

ringo is sh1te, nothing difficult about any of the drumming he had to do.

Which is possibly why all those drummers I mentioned in the above post thought he had it down. I'll always have Moon, Mitchell and the rest ahead of him -but I'll take their word as law that he's who they aspired to be like.

btw lionel, my point about fatboy slim, was not what you were getting at, it was simply dance music that makes it big in britain is the only real influence big in america in the underground dance scene, therefore making it big in britain also ( generally ) means making it big in the states - dance music scene that is.

Tell that to the scissors sisters. I don't see what point of mine you're countering by the way.

America didn't have the same perspective of FBS that we had at all. He had no 'Norman Cook multi persona' in the US that he had in this neck of the woods. The Housemartins (another great band who not only didn't "crack" america but never released a record nor toured there), Beats International, Pizzaman and the rest had no profile whatsoever in the states. They thought he was a band. A rock'n'roll band at that.

Just to get back on topic ....

What's got 10 legs, 9 arms, no brain and sounds like sh1t?

[paul_oshea]

thats quite a good joke.....

[Lionel Ritchie]

...though I probably should've finished it with a snare roll and cymbal

rat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat -crash!!!

or as yer man would put it...

rat- -tat- -tat- -tat- -crash!!!