Shels financial difficulties

[OneRedArmy]

Why can't there? All you need is two directors, and one of those can be a nominal one.

Nominee or otherwise PS, would you (or any reasonably sensible person) be inclined to act as 2nd director to Ollie?!

[Philly]

Surely a Shels fan on here knows who is running the club?

[Dodge]

Nominee or otherwise PS, would you (or any reasonably sensible person) be inclined to act as 2nd director to Ollie?!

I believe its a close relation of Ollie

[dcfcsteve]

Theres very little info from any EL clubs on how they conduct their business but it seems when shels say nothing it's because they are hiding something or up to something...

And three winding-up orders in 9 months would suggest that those suspicions are right....

So has Shels been trading whilst insolvent, or have you just been with-holding money from the Revenue deliberately ? It has to be one or the other.

[dcfcsteve]

Shelbourne FC Limited's May 2006 accounts showed the company was dormant - 2 shares and E2 in cash. Don't understand how that would be the subject of a winding up order.

If the players are the registered employees of Shelbourne FC Limited, then that entity will be liable for their PAYE etc. The Irish Times appeared to suggest that it was to do with wages.

Is it illegal, and indeed a criminal offence, in the Republic for a company to continue trading whilst technically insolvent ?

[Dodge]

If the players are the registered employees of Shelbourne FC Limited, then that entity will be liable for their PAYE etc. The Irish Times appeared to suggest that it was to do with wages.

Accolade is the employer for all players.

[dcfcsteve]

Accolade is the employer for all players.

So what tax is Shlbourne FC Limited liable for then ? Olly's wages ?

[pineapple stu]

The Irish Times appeared to suggest that it was to do with wages.

It's obviously to do with wages. It can't be VAT or Corporation Tax.

Is it illegal, and indeed a criminal offence, in the Republic for a company to continue trading whilst technically insolvent ?

Shels aren't insolvent - that's why they keep paying. They have huge cash flow problems, but as long as they own Tolka (or the lease on it), their assets are more than their liabilities, so they are solvent.

So what tax is Shlbourne FC Limited liable for then ?

Shelbourne FC Limited is a dormant company as of May 2006. It's liable for no tax.

[dcfcsteve]

Shelbourne FC Limited is a dormant company as of May 2006. It's liable for no tax.

Hang on - so what is Shelbourne FC Ltd being chased for here then ? If they've been dormant for 6 months, then I'm assuming it's just backdated salary tax that is still outstanding ? But salary tax for whom, if it isn't the players - Olly ?? The other previous Directors ?

[OneRedArmy]

Shels aren't insolvent - that's why they keep paying. They have huge cash flow problems, but as long as they own Tolka (or the lease on it), their assets are more than their liabilities, so they are solvent.

Stu, as an accountant you know as well as anybody that asset cover is rarely the fundamental problem in insolvencies, its generally cash flow than kills companies.

Also, having sold an option and drawn down against it, Shels are not the sole owner of the lease.

Its now clearly in the option-holders interest to force them out by withholding future drawdowns.

[Poor Student]

Can a business be shut down due to cash flow if they're solvent or would they just be forced to sell up assets?

[OneRedArmy]

Can a business be shut down due to cash flow if they're solvent or would they just be forced to sell up assets?

Broadly, if they can't pay creditors they get wound up and creditors divvy up the proceeds from the sale of assets with the Revenue getting first shout (or thereabouts).

[Poor Student]

But the sale of the assests would far exceed the debts. What happens to the left overs are they handed over to the shareholders?

[OneRedArmy]

But the sale of the assests would far exceed the debts. What happens to the left overs are they handed over to the shareholders?

Its chicken and egg!!! If assets are NOT immediately or readily realisable then you have liquidity problems (ie Shels).

Nobody has answered the $64,000 question as to why, if Shels lease is worth so much and they are able to drawdown cash at will from the optionholder, they have such huge cashflow issues.

Manic's post above is probably close to the truth, it would make sense that Shels are in a catch-22 from the Council re moving ground.

Again it all comes down to Ollie spending rashly as when they sold the option on the lease, the control went out of their hands.

You would imagine the penny might drop sometime soon in some of the more enlightened fans heads.

[paudie]

Nobody has answered the $64,000 question as to why, if Shels lease is worth so much and they are able to drawdown cash at will from the optionholder, they have such huge cashflow issues.

I think I read the option holders have stopped paying Shels any more "on account" until the whole lease issue is finalised.

[pineapple stu]

Stu, as an accountant you know as well as anybody that asset cover is rarely the fundamental problem in insolvencies, its generally cash flow than kills companies.

Course I do. But that wasn't the issue dcfcsteve was raising. If Shelbourne FC went belly up today, there would be enough money (as I understand it) from selling their assets to cover all their liabilities. Therefore, they're not insolvent, and therefore the issue of trading while insolvent doesn't arise. Everything you say is correct, but not relevant to the point I was making.

Hang on - so what is Shelbourne FC Ltd being chased for here then ? If they've been dormant for 6 months, then I'm assuming it's just backdated salary tax that is still outstanding ? But salary tax for whom, if it isn't the players - Olly ?? The other previous Directors ?

I don't know, to be honest. Looking back at the Irish Times article -

The previous Revenue petitions were against Accolade, a holding company behind Shelbourne, but the latest is against another corporate entity, Shelbourne FC, through which the club pays wages.

- Shelbourne FC Limited is never mentioned - only this other corporate entity called Shelbourne FC. There is no such corporate entity - Shelbourne FC is a business name, and the relevant corporate entity is Accolade Limited. Maybe that's the source of the confusion?

[pineapple stu]

Nobody has answered the $64,000 question as to why, if Shels lease is worth so much and they are able to drawdown cash at will from the optionholder, they have such huge cashflow issues.

Tolka is useless to the developers until they actually get their hands on it. Possibly Shels can't draw down money quite at the ease at which it appears. I certainly wouldn't be interested in advancing sums of money continuously to Shels, knowing that I can't make my money back on the development and sale of the property until Shels find a new ground/go under. Just a thought.

[drummerboy]

Tolka is useless to the developers until they actually get their hands on it. Possibly Shels can't draw down money quite at the ease at which it appears. I certainly wouldn't be interested in advancing sums of money continuously to Shels, knowing that I can't make my money back on the development and sale of the property until Shels find a new ground/go under. Just a thought.

Its obvious that Shels can't get their hands on the money for the sale of their lease. Fingal want to be paid upfront for the lease of Morton Stadium. DCC won't grant planning permission for the development at Tolka until Shels have a lease on another ground. Shels, so far, have been unable to fullfil this criteria. The simple solution would be for the developer to pay Shels the required amount to secure Morton Stadium. The puzzling thing is why this is not happening.

[dcfcsteve]

Its obvious that Shels can't get their hands on the money for the sale of their lease. Fingal want to be paid upfront for the lease of Morton Stadium. DCC won't grant planning permission for the development at Tolka until Shels have a lease on another ground. Shels, so far, have been unable to fullfil this criteria. The simple solution would be for the developer to pay Shels the required amount to secure Morton Stadium. The puzzling thing is why this is not happening.

Given the rate at which money seems to evapourate down Tolka way, would you be happy to hand Olly a large check for him to then pass on to someone else...?

[higgins]

Do you ********.

They are happy to cheer Ollie in the good times, they've made their bed so they can sleep in it.

Rovers are a prime example, their club was run by undesirables and they took it over and ran it themselves.

Rovers only took over after the whole thing went bang.
Ollie may appear to be heading for the same crash as Rovers did but if you look at both cases it was ready made for the 400 club to take over after the mess that happened.

Its not as simple as just taking over Shelbourne you know...

Despite what is wrote here on foot and all the rules you think Ollie has broke. He is a smart man and always covers himself....

Remember the time on here for months I was laughed at when you all said we would be out of Tolka without a ground in the coming weeks/months. I knew at the time that was false but couldnt say it. Later then you all realised that Ollie was carrying on because of what was said over Tolka not going befor eShels got another home.

The man is a lot smarter than you all give him credit for.

Do I agree with how he does things?
NO