Stuart Byrnes RTE Rant

[dcfcsteve]

David I hope you are ok. I worry when this happens to veteran keyboard warriors! I worry for myself that you could mix me up with that eejit .

Only our mother can tell us apart Lofty.....!

[David]

OK - will let's pop back to our good friends the facts and see what they have to say about the relative merits of the teams involved :

Teams Played
Linfield 1966/7 : FC Aris, FC Valarengen, CSKA Sofia.
Shelbourne 2004 : KR Reykjavik, Hdjuk Split, Deportivo La Coruna.
Derry 2006 : IFK Gothenborg, Gretna FC, Paris St Germain.

Looking at the teams involved, Linfield definitely had the least tricky opponents - even accounting for the ebbs and flows in standing over time. Admittedly, there isn't much in it in terms of quality of opposition when comparing Shels and Derry - we had a much tougher first round (though still managed to win both legs, whilst Shels drew both of theirs and had to rely on away goals to scrape through), and Shels had a tougher second round.

Also - if you want to try to reduce the impact of our run by bringing up issues such as how seriously clubs take each competition, I will happily bat that back with references to the fact that the gap between Irish football and the rest of the European pack in 1966/7 was narrower than it is today.

But bottom line is that the facts clearly state that Derry had a better run in Europe than Shels in 2004 and Linfield in 1966. If only you weren't so bitter and twisted about the Cadnystripes, you might be man enough to admit you called this one very wrong.



And when did I say differently ?



Oh David - put that handbag down. At your age you'll do yourself some real damage swinging it around like that.....



Good for you, and thanks for sharing that with me - even though i didn't mention Pat Fenlon anywhere in my post. A wee tip for you - different log-on names and avators usually suggests posts from different people....

Apologies for quoting you incorrectly, it was of course Lofty. I still think that Shels run is better than Derry's on the basis that they got through the same number of rounds in astronger competition.

[David]

David I hope you are ok. I worry when this happens to veteran keyboard warriors! I worry for myself that you could mix me up with that eejit .

Apologies for attributing your remarks to Steve when it was you that sadly tried to politicise things. Why would I not regard Linfield as Irish out of curiousity?

[lofty9]

Apologies for attributing your remarks to Steve when it was you that sadly tried to politicise things. Why would I not regard Linfield as Irish out of curiousity?

I honestly never thought Linfield supporters regarded themselves or club as Irish. Full apololigies.

[David]

I honestly never thought Linfield supporters regarded themselves or club as Irish. Full apololigies.

As a statement of fact we are from the island of ireland, therefore Irish. We also class ourselves as British in the same way that someone from England would class themselves as English and also British. Lesson over for today.

[dcfcsteve]

Apologies for quoting you incorrectly, it was of course Lofty. I still think that Shels run is better than Derry's on the basis that they got through the same number of rounds in astronger competition.

The title of the competition you play in doesn't itself make your run easy or hard. A competition has no 'strength' in-of itself. It's the teams in that competition give it its strength, and the teams you face that determine how easy your run is. Is It harder to finish in a UEFA Cup slot in England or France than in a CL spot in the IL or EL, for example...?

You could play 2 rounds in the CL against easy teams or 2 rounds in the UEFA Cup against hard teams. It would still be clear which was the tougher achievement, regardless of competition title.

If you compare the 3 teams Derry faced with the 3 teams Shelbourne faced, there is very very little between them overall in terms of strength.

Also - if you want to factor-in the relative strengths of competitions in determining the merits of success within them, then surely finishing joint-first in the Eircom League is harder than finishing top of the Irish League, as you're so proud to point out the 2 positions ? This year's Setanta showed the relative imbalance between the leagues, as have recent European results....

[David]

The title of the competition you play in doesn't itself make your run easy or hard. A competition has no 'strength' in-of itself. It's the teams in that competition give it its strength, and the teams you face that determine how easy your run is. Is It harder to finish in a UEFA Cup slot in England or France than in a CL spot in the IL or EL, for example...?

You could play 2 rounds in the CL against easy teams or 2 rounds in the UEFA Cup against hard teams. It would still be clear which was the tougher achievement, regardless of competition title.

If you compare the 3 teams Derry faced with the 3 teams Shelbourne faced, there is very very little between them overall in terms of strength.

Also - if you want to factor-in the relative strengths of competitions in determining the merits of success within them, then surely finishing joint-first in the Eircom League is harder than finishing top of the Irish League, as you're so proud to point out the 2 positions ? This year's Setanta showed the relative imbalance between the leagues, as have recent European results....

Wasn't aware that you finished joint first, I thought you finished second. Also, I would say the Deportivo side that put Shels out would be far superior to the PSG side that Derry faced. You just have to look at the respective leagues there.

[dcfcsteve]

Wasn't aware that you finished joint first, I thought you finished second. Also, I would say the Deportivo side that put Shels out would be far superior to the PSG side that Derry faced. You just have to look at the respective leagues there.

And the Gothenborg side we beat hoeme and away would've been leaps and bounds ahead of the Reykjavik side Shels only managed 2 draws against. That's why i said "overall" there isn't much between the sets of teams.

[higgins]

However, the mark of a good team is not knowing when to back down. I'm sure you think your chairman is doing a sterling job for you for that reason.

Wrong assumption

[David]

And the Gothenborg side we beat hoeme and away would've been leaps and bounds ahead of the Reykjavik side Shels only managed 2 draws against. That's why i said "overall" there isn't much between the sets of teams.

Whereas Gretna? About the level of Reykjavik I would say with Gothenberg around the level of Hadjuk Split.

[dcfcsteve]

Whereas Gretna? About the level of Reykjavik I would say with Gothenberg around the level of Hadjuk Split.

I'd put Gretna a bit above Reykjavik, Gothenborg around the same as Hadjuk, and Deportivo a bit above PSG. But no matter how you cut it, there isn't any huge gulf between the teams - the standard across both sets is broadly similar, yet Derry achieved remarkably better results than Shels did.

I see you've given up trying to defend any comaprison with Linfield's performance in 1966 though...

[David]

I'd put Gretna a bit above Reykjavik, Gothenborg around the same as Hadjuk, and Deportivo a bit above PSG. But no matter how you cut it, there isn't any huge gulf between the teams - the standard across both sets is broadly similar, yet Derry achieved remarkably better results than Shels did.

I see you've given up trying to defend any comaprison with Linfield's performance in 1966 though...

There is simply no argument there, surely getting into the last eight of Europe's premier club competition surpasses getting into the first round proper of a lesser competition like the UEFA Cup. You cannot measure things solely by the level of the opposition. Would that meaning winning the FAI Cup would be devalued if you got an easy draw through to the final?

[dcfcsteve]

There is simply no argument there, surely getting into the last eight of Europe's premier club competition surpasses getting into the first round proper of a lesser competition like the UEFA Cup. You cannot measure things solely by the level of the opposition. Would that meaning winning the FAI Cup would be devalued if you got an easy draw through to the final?

It is a totally valid arguement. Making the quarter finals of the European Champions Cup in 1966 only required knocking out 2 opponents. Nowadays, knocking out 2 opponents in the Champions League would only get Linfield as far as the First Round Proper. You'd have to play another 6 or 7 teams to reach the Quarter-final equivalent today. On top of that, the seeding system that is in-play nowadays means the quality of opponent is higher as the tournament progresses - which wasn't the case in 1966. So you'd have to play two or three times as many teams, of increasing difficulty, to replicate nowadays what you achieved 40 years ago versus only 2 opponents. So that is clearly tougher - without in any way making the competition any less appealing either then or now.

Are you suggesting, for example, that winning a World Cup involving only 13 teams in 1930 was no harder than winning one in 2006 with 32 teams nd many more rounds to get through ??? The value of tournaments doesn't fluctuate on a year-on-year basis dependent upon who progresses in them - the FA Cup wasn't lessened by Wimbledon winning it in 1988, for example, nor has the FAI Cup been lessened by Bray winning it as a First Division club in 1990. But that doesn't prevent the difficulty of winning such a trophy from alternating over time - dependent upon format, total number and strength of entrants, and the quality of entrants any individual team faces.

Gretna made the Scottish Cup Final in 2006 without having to face a single SPL opponent. Hearts made the final by facing and beating 3 opponents from Scotland's top flight. Gretna clearly had an easier route to the final. Saying that does not in any way devalue that particular tournament.

[higgins]

As you can see, Derry won 3 times as many games, bagging almost twice as many points (in the traditional sense of 3pts for a win, 1 for a draw), and scored 50% more goals. Derry also made a greater contribution to the Eircom League's co-efficient, despite CL points being worth more at an earlier stage.

Shelbourne had the better run...

What Shelbourne did was in the Champions League for a start and despite what you think its easier to gain coefficient points in the UEFA due to there only being two qualifying rounds and not three.

Teams are also of a higher standard.

I guess you as a Derry fan wouldn't know too much about Champions League football anayway.

[dcfcsteve]

Shelbourne had the better run...

What Shelbourne did was in the Champions League for a start and despite what you think its easier to gain coefficient points in the UEFA due to there only being two qualifying rounds and not three.

Teams are also of a higher standard.

I guess you as a Derry fan wouldn't know too much about Champions League football anayway.

We wouldn't know much about relegation either - something Shels fans know all too well from past experience. An experience that may well repeat itself in the very near future as your convict Chairman presses his fat fingers on the self-destruct button attached to the sinking ship of your pathetic little sham club.

And as one of the few Shelbourne fans, you probably wouldn't know much about accepting facts and reality either....

Look at my previous thread where I listed the teams and results form our 2 European runs. The teams we played and you played are, as a whole, broadly similar in standard. Yet our results were dramatically better. The difference in standard between the 2 tournaments is irrelevant in comparing our performances- it's the strength of oppositon that counts. Scraping through on away goals after failing to beat Rejkyavik is NOT a better result than beating IFK Gothenborg home and away, for example - regardless of the individual merits of the competitiosn those isolated results occured in.

How's Fenlon getting on down in Dublin by the way......?

[OneRedArmy]

I guess you as a Derry fan wouldn't know too much about Champions League football anayway.

Well you never know, we might get a shot next year if Ollie can't pull the next rabbit out of the hat before next season.

Ollie's continued vindictive attitude towards certain clubs has ensured that Shels UEFA license submission will be fairly heavily scrutinised before next season.

[wws]

back on topic steweys rant was world class and worthy of live prime time tv (he actually had a further go on radio - if anything topping that rant!)

we need more of that sort of thing

legendary


easily the best contribution shels have ever made to the development of the league as an entertaining product

[higgins]

We wouldn't know much about relegation either - something Shels fans know all too well from past experience. An experience that may well repeat itself in the very near future as your convict Chairman presses his fat fingers on the self-destruct button attached to the sinking ship of your pathetic little sham club.

All comes back to Ollie and how you hate Shels ?

Hard to have a proper debate with you if your hatred of Ollie keeps getting in the way. I thought I made a comment on european runs and Derry not knowing much about Champions League football ? What has your rant got to do with that ?

Look at my previous thread where I listed the teams and results form our 2 European runs.

I had a quick look ....
For a start we played 8 games so I dont have a clue why you only listed 6 ?

[1Davy]

I'm too busy counting the number of league titles we've won in that time to give a toss. Though if you want to know, the head to head in the league this season was an embarassing humilation for Shels. Look at this, awful stuff

Played 3, won 1, drawn 1, lost 1

Pales in comparison to Kennys almighty Derrys record against us, shockingly, played 3, won 1, drawn 1, lost 1.

Shameful. But sure at least we've out 3rd title in 4 years to console ourselves over it. It's a crum of comfort, at least.

You left out the fact we beat you in the LC final with only 9 men.

We beat you in the FAI cup in your own ground for the last three years.

And as for the 1 win you mention, that was 1 win in the last 14 times we have played you.

The 1 drawn game you mention, was when Derry were down to 10 men for most of the game, and we hadn't a regular goal keeper.

Remember the score when our keeper was sent off was 2-0 in Tolka.

I know, i know, it's so hard to take a beating all the time.

How so? I was at that game and don't know what you are talking about.

Yeah you really took that defeat really well.

One picture is worth a thousand words ......

David, there are also some chips on your shoulders, for whatever reason, I don't know. Have you anything good to say about Derry City FC at all? Will you ever have? Well done to Linfield for their wonderful European exploits, I remember watching it on TV years ago. Plenty of well deserverd media coverage at the time, if I recall. Nice to see you regard Linfield as Irish too. That's a welcome break from the norm.

Concentrate on congratulating Shelbourne on winning the league and stop having a pop at DCFC at every whim. BTW are you going to go to the Brandywell when your hero Fenlon takes over the reigns from Kenny? Somehow I think your dislike for Derry will put a sour taste to your liking for him when that happens.

David's pet hate is Derry City.

He can't hide his bitterness as can be seen on other forums.

When the BBC decided to show our European Cup game he almost overdosed on Prozac.

[David]

I had a quick look ....
For a start we played 8 games so I dont have a clue why you only listed 6 ?

Brilliant, sort of shafts Steve's argument that one.