Rossport Today

[SÓC]

It's not BP it's Shell.
The use of the Gardai to enforce the will of said multinationals.

I'd agree with the rest of the post but...the Gardaí are enforcing the will of the Irish Courts and not that of Shell or the Government

[BohsPartisan]

And the will of the courts is the will of the multinationals. Very little has changed in Irish law since the days when we were part of the British Empire, who's interests do you think the B.E. established their laws for the benefit of? Rackrenting landlords and captains of industry thats who. Thats why these laws suit the Irish capitalist establishment and the tentacles of US Imperialism - the multinationals - so well today.

what is there arguement ? they want petrol /gas etc but they dont want it processed here but they are quite happy to use petrol or gas processed somewhere else .

Either you are being disingenious here or you are ignorant of reasons for the protest.
Issue One: They (the residents of the area) want the gas processed off shore as is the industry norm unless of course the Gas sourse is in the middle of a desert miles from habitation.
Issue TWO: The left in the campaign want the gas to be processed by a nationalised company run for ther benefit of the Irish peple, not a profit exporting multinational.
Issue Three: Some elements I.E. the environmentalists would prefer not to have the gas processed at all. These three elements of the protest represent different views who have come together for the purpose of unity. I doubt anyone is in all three camps more likely you have Issue 1. as the main issue for the locals with some having an interest in issue two and others with issue three.

[onceahoop]

And the will of the courts is the will of the multinationals. Very little has changed in Irish law since the days when we were part of the British Empire, who's interests do you think the B.E. established their laws for the benefit of? Rackrenting landlords and captains of industry thats who. Thats why these laws suit the Irish capitalist establishment and the tentacles of US Imperialism - the multinationals - so well today.

Are you saying that the Judiciary is not independent?. There is a clear seperation of power between it and the executive.

The Constitution was written in 1937 which was long after the British left. Many new laws have been enacted since then which have no relation to The Empire. I've sat in many a court room and watched judges go out of their way to help citizens of the state in cases where the State has initiated proceedings against them.

Finally, I have to agree with Dahamsta. You sound like your cutting and pasting out of every little red book that was ever written. Dogma turns peole off.

[BohsPartisan]

Then why do you repeat the Dogma you are taught in school that the judiciary is independant? Name to me a time in history when the state was independant of classes, when the state was not organised along the lines that best suited the ruling class. Why for example are the tribunals into political corruption unable to prosecute anyone? I'm not sying that a judge or a garda can't be a decent person but I am saying that these institutions are institutions of class rule. You can call that dogma if it makes you feel better but any look at the evidence bears this out. The fact that it was legal to rob the Irish people of the corrib gas field in the beginning bears this out.

[Ringo]

This is going way off topic. Comrade Bohspartisan is throwing a lot of accusations here about the Gardai & the state. I had a lot of sympathy for the Rossport five. They were local people protesting about something that was happening in their community. My reference to the rent-a-mob, was accurate in my opinion. Sinn Fein admitted to busing in 22 people & then the usual suspects of Social workers & Richard Boyd (rich boy with nothing else to do) Barrett turn up. As I’ve said before other people have rights too , not just the protesters. If you feel so strongly about these issues ,you should stand alone & not use petrol/plastic & whatever other by products the industry produces. It’s like listening to a vegetarian talking about the evils of meat while eating a big juicy steak dripping blood

[BohsPartisan]

Thats a moronic comment Ringo.
1. If someone was a Vegetarian they wouldn't be eating a steak.
2. You are not comparing like with like. Being a vegetarian is a lifestyle choice, being a Socialist is a political choice. Being a Socialist does not mean you are against cars, mass produced food, deoderant, shaving utensils or any of these things - it means you want to change the way wealth is produced and distributed on a mass scale. You can't do that by turning on tuning in and dropping out. Its an idiotic analogy that is not worthy of a 16 year old.
3. Sinn Féin or anyone else bussing people in to support the protest is irrelivant. Many groups did that. So what. 22 people on a bus? What a revelation!
I don't like Sinn Féin one bit and I'm not the biggest fan of the SWP so if it was just these people making up something to protest on 1. I wouldn't support it, 2. It wouldn't have lasted this long because you need some sort of support in society at large to sustain something like this. 3. The issue which has already been addressed is not that these people do not want to use Cars or the fuel that makes the cars go its how it gets from A to B, how and where it is refined and who is doing the refining. Now stop wasting my time with illinformed comments like the above.

[dahamsta]

Thats a moronic comment Ringo.

So is that. We've had a discussion about this in the Support forum before when you stuck your nose in to lecture me about how I dealt with someone else, so you know damn well it's against the rules. Don't do it again, and don't argue with me.

[pete]

The gardai are upholding the laws of this land & decisions of various independent courts. I agree with comments that the gardai not heavy handed enough in other situations where people blocking public roads.

The Shell to Sea people do not know what they stand for. Do they oppose Shell use of natural resouces? Do they oppose the Terminal in exisiting location or all locations? 'Shell to Sea' name suggest that they do not oppose the Shell operation but just don't want it in their area. They are no different than any other nimby organisation. The addition of some SF supportes to their protests will not increase public support.

The big business Rhetoric is getting boring now. We live in a democratic country & just because some people can't get TDs elected in enough numbers they complain about bias. The state funds political parties & public donations are not done in secret anymore. Not accepting the democratic will of the country is called Communism!

I didn't vote for FF & I don't like them but for good or bad thats what the nation elected to run this country. If the majority doesn't like this they will vote for someone else or stand for election themselves.

[BohsPartisan]

The gardai are upholding the laws of this land & decisions of various independent courts. I agree with comments that the gardai not heavy handed enough in other situations where people blocking public roads.

Done to death. You can look at my answer to this type of thing in any of the other posts in this or the other Rossport threads. You're like a broken record now.

The Shell to Sea people do not know what they stand for.

Again I have outlined this in a post above. S2S is a federated group with different viewpoints coming together for a common cause. See my previous post.

The big business Rhetoric is getting boring now. We live in a democratic country & just because some people can't get TDs elected in enough numbers they complain about bias. The state funds political parties & public donations are not done in secret anymore. Not accepting the democratic will of the country is called Communism!

Ah the old capitalist Dogma rearing its head again. You know as a moderator you should know better than to stray off topic. Me DrND and SoS have answered these ridiculous comments (which if I didn't know better I would describe as flaming) in great depth in the Socialism thread. Unless you adequately tackle our answers, which you haven't, please refrain from this line of arguement.

I didn't vote for FF & I don't like them but for good or bad thats what the nation elected to run this country.

Less than 1/4 of the Adult population voted for them. Hardly representative of the Nation now is it? Its very expensive to run candidates and the government funding you mentioned is a pitance compared with what the brown paper envelope can afford, but again this is straying off topic.

[Ringo]

Thats a moronic comment Ringo.
1. If someone was a Vegetarian they wouldn't be eating a steak.
2. You are not comparing like with like. Being a vegetarian is a lifestyle choice, being a Socialist is a political choice. Being a Socialist does not mean you are against cars, mass produced food, deoderant, shaving utensils or any of these things - it means you want to change the way wealth is produced and distributed on a mass scale. You can't do that by turning on tuning in and dropping out. Its an idiotic analogy that is not worthy of a 16 year old.
3. Sinn Féin or anyone else bussing people in to support the protest is irrelivant. Many groups did that. So what. 22 people on a bus? What a revelation!
I don't like Sinn Féin one bit and I'm not the biggest fan of the SWP so if it was just these people making up something to protest on 1. I wouldn't support it, 2. It wouldn't have lasted this long because you need some sort of support in society at large to sustain something like this. 3. The issue which has already been addressed is not that these people do not want to use Cars or the fuel that makes the cars go its how it gets from A to B, how and where it is refined and who is doing the refining. Now stop wasting my time with illinformed comments like the above.

I feel if some opposes the petrol industry, then they shouldn't drive in the same way a vegetarian as you point out would not eat meat, why would you contribute to the industry. The original aim of the Rossport five is being lost (as is the topic in this thread ). They were never against Shell; they just wanted the pipe either at sea or somewhere else. As someone said NIMBY’s. The collection of people protesting now, all have their own agenda’s & personnel grievances with Shell, The government & Gardai etc. The topic is about Rossport & the protest there, not about socialism & Capitalism. .

[Ringo]

Less than 1/4 of the Adult population voted for them. Hardly representative of the Nation now is it? Its very expensive to run candidates and the government funding you mentioned is a pitance compared with what the brown paper envelope can afford, but again this is straying off topic.

That’s democracy for you . The public are so stupid, what can you do, they have no mind's of there own . Maybe they just don't by into the whole socialism thing, i wonder why

[BohsPartisan]

But I would posit that you cannot place Rosport in a vacume divorced from the material circumstances that created the situation.
I wouldn't call the protesters NIMBY's as thats a derogatory remark for people who do no want something in their area but don't mind it being in someone else's back yard. Thats not an accurate description of the original aims of the protest. They want the refinery to be at sea as is the industry norm!
Again the example you use of vegetarianism is not comparing like with like. The people at Rossport ar not against modern technology or the use of fuel sold by Shell, so why are they hypocrites for driving cars? I'm sure they are boycotting Shell and Statoil until this is resolved. I know I do.

[pete]

Surely placing the Terminal on the edge of the coast (i believe this was 1 proposed site by the protestors) will ruin the scenic area for the purposes of tourism? Would seem better to place it in a bog well away from the scenic parts of that area?

[BohsPartisan]

Bog is unstable. Not a good place for highly pressurised pipes.

[pete]

Bog is unstable. Not a good place for highly pressurised pipes.

I only used bog to suggest land of low value.

[BohsPartisan]

If it was sufficiently far away from population ant the land was stable like in the middle of a desert that would be fine. Thats not an option in this instance.
The legal arguement employed here might hold water (though as I have already stated I believe th elaw is stacked against the protesters and civil disobedience is a legitimate tactic) if the cops actually abided by the law and made arrests rather than carrying out acts of ultra-violence against the protesters - which is not allowed by law but I don't see any of them being arrested either.

[bennocelt]

[QUOTE=Ringo;576011]That’s democracy for you . The public are so stupid, what can you do, they have no mind's of there own
Maybe they just don't by into the whole socialism thing, i wonder why:[QUOTE]

in a country where the irish sun is the biggest selling daily!
no really democracy is great

[WeAreRovers]

in a country where the irish sun is the biggest selling daily!

It's not but hey, don't let that get in the way of your prejudices.

KOH

[BohsPartisan]

People aren't stupid, just blighted by years of having no opposition worth voting for. Its hardly surprising that half the population couldn't give a flying fig about politics.

[dahamsta]

It's not but hey, don't let that get in the way of your prejudices.

Isn't it the Indo at the moment? Isn't that worse?

As long as we can keep the Star away from the top spot we'll be ok.

adam