Bad, BAD news!

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by Éanna

Much as I´ve never been a McCarthy fan, one would have to be blind AND stupid to dispute that fact.

Painful as it may be for some, I am going to dispute that fact.

1. Jack Charlton brought us to the quarter-finals of the World Cup in 1990. In fact we were only a couple of kicks of a ball away from the semis.
2. Jack brought the Republic to the 1988 Euros, a BIG upset. Not only that we fell agonisingly short of knocking eventual winners Holland out.
3. Mick has consistently shown himself to be afraid of taking so-called better teams head-on away from home.
4. Until Mick can stand up and show a record that good, Big Jack will always be the benchmark for Irish managers (assuming Mick could achieve anything like it in a million years).

Murphy Out Now!!!

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by Boom

BTW 'Shed End John' - you came out of that looking like a right twit! did ya ever hear of Sligo Rovers?

This 'twit' as you so articulately put it can remember all too many shock Cup and League defeats to Sligo including a very ill-tempered Cup match at the X. Course I've bloody well heard of Sligo Rovers, just not recently thank f**k. Wouldn't be able to stomach any more surprise defeats at their hands. You obviously failed to recognise that my original question was written in a spirit of pure sarcasm!

Murphy Out Now!!!

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by COLM
Personally, I think you are talking complete and utter crap. What you are saying is that even if we won the World cup you would want rid of McCarthy. if we won the World cup the guy would be a god.

but having a change of manager between now and euro 2004 could spell disaster.

I beg to differ. Even if we achieved World Cup glory, fact is Mick would be FAR short of a God in too many peoples eyes, mine included. Yes, I would want rid of him because he's a mediocre manager (at best) on the pitch, absolutely HOPELESS off it and we all know that even with the best squad of players ever that he wouldn't bring home the World Cup.
It's NOT having a change of manager between now and Euro 2004 that could spell disaster.

Murphy Out Now!!!

[Éanna]

Originally posted by Shed End John
4. Until Mick can stand up and show a record that good, Big Jack will always be the benchmark for Irish managers (assuming Mick could achieve anything like it in a million years).

Charlton had a much better squad of players than McCarthy, and if he had had a notion about how to play football, we could have won one of those tournaments. McCarthy has almost matched Charltons achievements with a WAY more average squad, playing MUCH better football- that is how i measure a good manager.

Originally posted by Shed End John
Even if we achieved World Cup glory, fact is Mick would be FAR short of a God in too many peoples eyes, mine included. Yes, I would want rid of him because he's a mediocre manager (at best) on the pitch

There is no way a "mediocre" manager could win the world cup with a squad as average as ours. I don´t believe for a minute McCarthy could win us the WC (or the euros) but if he did, no-one could accuse him of being mediocre!

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by Éanna

Charlton had a much better squad of players than McCarthy, and if he had had a notion about how to play football, we could have won one of those tournaments. McCarthy has almost matched Charltons achievements with a WAY more average squad, playing MUCH better football- that is how i measure a good manager.

I wouldn't dispute that he had. However, what was lacking was the culture of playing a passing game here. Jesus, it even took Mick 6 years to properly get it started (first major championship-2002 World Cup).
You make fair enough points. But, if a manager is to be judged on results, Mick is still 2nd to Charlton. Hell, back in 1988 and 1990 when Big Jack was breaking his back trying to drag us from the doldrums and instill some national pride in our team, noone seemed to mind what the football was like. Results were achieved, period. Where were all the Charlton-bashers back then?

Murphy Out Now!!!

[MikeW]

Wait a minute John, in your piece about Charlton being our best ever manager you say "we were only a couple of kicks of a ball away from the semis" in 1990, and "we fell agonisingly short of knocking eventual winners Holland out" in 1988. Now I feel obliged to say that a lot of the criticism of McCarthy has revolved around not being able to knock Spain out of the last World Cup. So how can two failures by Charlton be seen as great positives while one failure by McCarthy is seen as a huge negative and a reason to get rid of him? There seems to be a lot of hipocrisy at work here.

The fact is that in Charltons day you could qualify for a World Cup in 2nd place in a group while you can't now, you must go through a play-off. Also during the World Cup itself many third placed teams in the group stage got throught to the second round, that doesn't happen anymore either - we had to draw lots with Holland in 1990 to see who was 2nd or 3rd, today that'd be the difference between staying on and going home.

[Schumi]

A lot of the criticism McCarthy is getting recently has been completely over the top. The world cup was far from a disaster, going unbeaten against the eventual finalists, the African champions and Spain isn't bad. While it's not exceptional either, it's a bit much to be calling for the manager's head. Out side of that, we've had one poor game against Russia.

I don't agree with a lot of McCarthy's decisions (4-5-1, Harte, Duff, Carsley <shudder>) but his record is pretty good.

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by MikeW
Wait a minute John, in your piece about Charlton being our best ever manager you say "we were only a couple of kicks of a ball away from the semis" in 1990, and "we fell agonisingly short of knocking eventual winners Holland out" in 1988. Now I feel obliged to say that a lot of the criticism of McCarthy has revolved around not being able to knock Spain out of the last World Cup. So how can two failures by Charlton be seen as great positives while one failure by McCarthy is seen as a huge negative and a reason to get rid of him? There seems to be a lot of hipocrisy at work here.

Fact is the mind set of the Irish public was WAY different back then and so was the state of Irish soccer. It was a MASSIVE shock that we even qualified for those tournaments let alone made a HUGE impression in one (1990) and nearly made a far bigger impression in the other (1988). Like him or otherwise, Charlton deserves credit for that AND the subsequent mindset change.

Murphy Out now!!!

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by gustavo

we qualified for finishing third some 6 places and 14 points above cork city

And what exactly have Sligo achieved since then? Beyond relegation AND First Division mediocrity, that is.

Murphy Out Now!!!

[Éanna]

Originally posted by Schumi
I don't agree with a lot of McCarthy's decisions (4-5-1, Harte, Duff, Carsley <shudder>) but his record is pretty good.

Right.

Question for ya: who were the only 2 countries to score aginst Germany in the World Cup? Ireland and Brazil- jeeze, we must be terrible altogether

[Neil]

In Charlton's day, the top two qualified.
Now (in McCarthy's day) only the top one qualifies.

ShedEndJohn,
You are typical of the ****-talking idiots you'd here constantly in the pub. There is no getting through to 'people' like you.

[Greenbod]

[Charlton had a much better squad of players than McCarthy, and if he had had a notion about how to play football, we could have won one of those tournaments. McCarthy has almost matched Charltons achievements with a WAY more average squad, playing MUCH better football- that is how i measure a good manager]

Eanna, you are 100% correct here.

Shed End John, You are consistently wrong. McCarthy's record in competitive games is better than Charlton's. Go back and look at their win, loss, draw record. Under the rules pertaining at Charlton's time, McCarthy's team would have qualified for two more tournaments. Lastly the fact that you dispute that Charlton was working with a better squad of players makes me doubt you've ever watched a football match.

[Éanna]

Originally posted by Greenbod
Lastly the fact that you dispute that Charlton was working with a better squad of players makes me doubt you've ever watched a football match.

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by Greenbod
[qualified for two more tournaments. Lastly the fact that you dispute that Charlton was working with a better squad of players makes me doubt you've ever watched a football match.

I NEVER disputed the fact that Big Jack had a far better squad of players. I'd be dumb, deaf, blind and f***in stupid if I said he didn't. I just disputed, as is my right on this DISCUSSION forum, that Mick is a better manager than Jack.
Secondly, I've attended and watched literally thousands of soccer matches, so you know what you can do with your ill-informed doubts.

Murphy Out Now!!!
McCarthy Out Now!!!

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by Neil
ShedEndJohn,
You are typical of the ****-talking idiots you'd here constantly in the pub. There is no getting through to 'people' like you.

Real mature, I have to say. Whatever happened to discussing matters civilly, like ADULTS?
Unlike some, I base/form my opinions on the basis of the evidence before me. IMO, Mick was, is and will be very bad news for Ireland as long as he stays in charge. You only have to look at what happened at Landsdowne last night to see what I mean.

Murphy Out Now!!!
McCarthy Out Now!!!

[Éanna]

Originally posted by Shed End John
Real mature, I have to say. Whatever happened to discussing matters civilly, like ADULTS?

Originally posted by Shed End John
Secondly, I've attended and watched literally thousands of soccer matches, so you know what you can do with your ill-informed doubts.

[SIZE=4]POT KETTLE BLACK[/SIZE]

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by Greenbod

Shed End John, You are consistently wrong. McCarthy's record in competitive games is better than Charlton's. Go back and look at their win, loss, draw record.

Sorry to disagree with you again, but a quick look at page 91 of yesterdays (20/10/02) Ireland on Sunday will prove me right. Charlton was in charge for 94 games winning 47 or exactly 50%, Mick has won 29 of his 68 in charge or 42%. Additionally Jack lost 20 of his 94, 21%, while Mick has lost 17 of his 68, 25%. Just to finish off, by simple maths, Jack drew 29% of his games, Mick has drawn 33%. Putting % of games un beaten head-to-head, the score reads Jack 79%, Mick 75%.

Murphy Out Now!!!
McCarthy Out Now!!!