Sean St. Ledger

[elroy]

Doesnt sound good.....

Nicky Maynard scored twice as title favourites Leicester suffered a second successive shock defeat at home.

Maynard gave the Robins the lead on five minutes, drilling home a free kick from the edge of the penalty area, but then missed a penalty.

David Nugent did equalise with a spectacular 25-yard right-foot strike.

But Maynard scored his second on 66 minutes, stealing the ball off Sean St Ledger on the halfway line and racing clear to beat keeper Kasper Schmeichel.

[ifk101]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBaSb...ayer_embedded#!

The doc was caught out badly there.

[SwanVsDalton]

His club form has been poor in stark contrast to his very assured performances for us. I suspect he might be trying too hard - he seems to get caught out playing a lot more ball at club level whereas for us, with Honey Monster beside him and Trap's instructions, he usually plays it simple.

[ifk101]

His club form has been poor in stark contrast to his very assured performances for us. I suspect he might be trying too hard - he seems to get caught out playing a lot more ball at club level whereas for us, with Honey Monster beside him and Trap's instructions, he usually plays it simple.

Very assured? Not too sure about that and the Dunne influence, trying too hard + keeping it simple comments read as you're not are fully convinced the doc is a "very assured" performer either. Certainly the keeping it simple comment is valid but it's pretty much the case for all our players under Trapattoni's leadership. And there's no doubt Dunne has guided the doc through games - would the doc be a very assured performer without Dunne by his side? Questionable.

The doc's poor club form, which has been poor for some time, is actual indicative of his qualities as a footballer. He isn't afforded the same level of protection at club level as he is in an Irish jersey and hence his deficiencies are regularly exposed. I do recall, for example, a similar instance to last night's mistake in a game last season against Hull where the doc was also caught in possession and easily brushed off the ball from which Hull scored.

With Dunne by his side, he hasn't been caught out too often at international level and hopefully won't be in our upcoming competitive games. However he isn't the player the doc makes himself out to be and is certainly a weak point in the team.

[Stuttgart88]

I remember dunne being caught out the same awy at home to wales at Croker.

I can see what ifk101 is saying but i've been impressed by SSL, and he was excellent despite complete ring-rustiness against Italy in Liege. No Dunne in sight!

[ifk101]

I can see what ifk101 is saying but i've been impressed by SSL, and he was excellent despite complete ring-rustiness against Italy in Liege. No Dunne in sight!

I'll give him that. He did have a good game against the Italians.

[SwanVsDalton]

Very assured? Not too sure about that and the Dunne influence, trying too hard + keeping it simple comments read as you're not are fully convinced the doc is a "very assured" performer either. Certainly the keeping it simple comment is valid but it's pretty much the case for all our players under Trapattoni's leadership. And there's no doubt Dunne has guided the doc through games - would the doc be a very assured performer without Dunne by his side? Questionable.

No, I do think he's been very assured. I simply mean he might be trying too hard at club level. Like I said. Think you're overthinking it considering how young St.Ledger is and that, to my mind, he hasn't made too many errors or any real clangers in his 19 caps so far. Plus, as Stutts pointed out, he's played well without Dunne enough times too. My comment was just a general musing on why his club form has been patchy. Personally I think his real ability is closer to the solid, consistently good performances he puts out for us.

With Dunne by his side, he hasn't been caught out too often at international level and hopefully won't be in our upcoming competitive games. However he isn't the player the doc makes himself out to be and is certainly a weak point in the team.

Considering he's been consistently very good for Ireland, it's patently unfair to call him a weak link. Dunne was rubbish hokum for Villa last year but it didn't stop him being good when he played for us.

[ifk101]

No, I do think he's been very assured. I simply mean he might be trying too hard at club level. Like I said. Think you're overthinking it considering how young St.Ledger is and that, to my mind, he hasn't made too many errors or any real clangers in his 19 caps so far. Plus, as Stutts pointed out, he's played well without Dunne enough times too. My comment was just a general musing on why his club form has been patchy. Personally I think his real ability is closer to the solid, consistently good performances he puts out for us.

Considering he's been consistently very good for Ireland, it's patently unfair to call him a weak link. Dunne was rubbish hokum for Villa last year but it didn't stop him being good when he played for us.

But his current club form isn't patchy. This is his level. And at 26 the doc should be in his prime as a footballer but not if you look at his transfer market valuation. If he is being exposed in the Championship, the risk is high that against the top tiers of international football teams he'll also be exposed.

Think about it this way. If the doc had yet to be capped, do you think his performances at club level merit a call-up?

[SwanVsDalton]

But his current club form isn't patchy. This is his level. And at 26 the doc should be in his prime as a footballer but not if you look at his transfer market valuation. If he is being exposed in the Championship, the risk is high that against the top tiers of international football teams he'll also be exposed.

Think about it this way. If the doc had yet to be capped, do you think his performances at club level merit a call-up?

He was earning rave notices a couple of years back, so I prefer to see it as a form issue. It really depends whether you think he's at his level or not - to be honest I don't really care. Doc's been nothing but very good for us and shown no signs of being high risk. Unlikely his record will remain blemish free but compared to some of our past centre backs he's been very steady and that's enough for me.

And that's a weird hypothetical. Using that measure, at one time last year roughly three quarters of our squad wouldn't get called up.

[ifk101]

Rave reviews a couple of years back .....

This is the issue.

[SwanVsDalton]

Rave reviews a couple of years back .....

This is the issue.

Is it actually an issue for us at all though? That's my point. Guy plays well for us, I don't have a problem. His form is a worry, but Robbie Keane, Richard Dunne and Keith Andrews are but three examples of players shrugging off indifferent to downright awful club form to be vital players for us.

And the guy certainly has enough quality to rectify the club form imo.

[CraftyToePoke]

Nice debating lads, interesting read through. The main Leicester forum today has a player ratings thread running and he has a lot of support, some slating him but some want Sven sacked and the whole lot razed. Plenty saying game costing error apart he was decent, good accurate distribution and very good in the air through the game, headers finding feet of team mates throughout. I didnt see this game.

[paul_oshea]

At some stage it will be SvD i think part of the point IFK has indirectly made infers this. It would be naive to think that eventually the faults that occur that keep him where he is at club level, will seep through - perhaps rarely - into his international form

[SwanVsDalton]

At some stage it will be SvD i think thats the point IFK is trying to make. It would be naive to think that eventually the faults that occur that keep him where he is at club level, will seep through - perhaps rarely - into his international form

I understand that point about it maybe proving costly but I don't buy it.

It's the height of speculative pessimism to preempt a player losing form for Ireland.

St.Ledger hasn't been playing well now for a while, Dunne hasn't played consistently well for a club in over a year, Keane and Andrews ditto - all of them have turned up fairly well at international level.

Club form is an indicator but it doesn't spell imminent disaster in an Irish shirt - how many players have we had down the years who have been mediocre at club level but have been very solid for us?

I'm not saying his club form isn't a concern, I'm just saying calling him a weak link or predicting doom and gloom about him is well OTT.

[ifk101]

I understand that point about it maybe proving costly but I don't buy it.

But you are not prepared to say his club form isn't a concern?

It's the height of speculative pessimism to preempt a player losing form for Ireland.

If he is not playing week in week out, and playing poorly when he gets the chance, surely you can accept that this isn't ideal preparation for international duty? Isn't it fair to have a pessimistic outlook when his past and current performances at club level are sub standard?

St.Ledger hasn't been playing well now for a while, Dunne hasn't played consistently well for a club in over a year, Keane and Andrews ditto - all of them have turned up fairly well at international level.

You surely aren't comparing the years of experience Dunne and Keane have from top flight football to the doc's mediocre existence in the Championship? As for Andrews, if he wasn't playing first team football, I'd strongly question his position in a competitive starting line-up.

Club form is an indicator but it doesn't spell imminent disaster in an Irish shirt - how many players have we had down the years who have been mediocre at club level but have been very solid for us?

I'm not saying his club form isn't a concern, I'm just saying calling him a weak link or predicting doom and gloom about him is well OTT.

OTT?

[Supreme feet]

Seem to remember Kenny Cunningham playing some fantastic games for Ireland when he was struggling to get into Wimbledon's team at right-back. I remember Steve Finnan being solid for Liverpool in the Champions League a week before being torn apart in Nicosia in 2006. There's no exact formula for the club/international performance relationship, because you're playing with different players, under different systems and different coaches/managers. I'm going to give SSL the benefit of the doubt, because his performances at international level have deserved it.

Edit: And it's not like we have an abundance of options at centre-back. Along with our central midfield, our lack of depth in central defence has been an issue for about six years now. Who would ifk101 replace SSL with?

[rebelmusic]

Why would anyone care how well he is playing with some random british championship club when he's consistently good for us?? If someone played in my local soccer club but was banging in a goal in 3 for Ireland i wouldnt question it. Sometimes there's being negative for the sake of being negative.

If he starts playing crap for ireland, his form for Leicester is a justified conversation.

[ifk101]

Why would anyone care how well he is playing with some random british championship club when he's consistently good for us??

I'm just thinking of the time and effort that goes into that Irish Abroad thread when reading your question. Anyways this has already been covered.

If someone played in my local soccer club but was banging in a goal in 3 for Ireland i wouldnt question it.

Of course you would. You'd question why that chap is at your local club and how did he get into the Ireland team. Maybe somebody cared about his club form and picked him on that?

Sometimes there's being negative for the sake of being negative.

His "troubles" at club level should be a topic of discussion, no?

If he starts playing crap for ireland, his form for Leicester is a justified conversation.

His form for Leciester is a justified conversation regardless.

And it's not like we have an abundance of options at centre-back. Along with our central midfield, our lack of depth in central defence has been an issue for about six years now. Who would ifk101 replace SSL with?

If everyone is available, JoSH and Dunne is our best partnership.

[SwanVsDalton]

But you are not prepared to say his club form isn't a concern?

Eh no...

I'm not saying his club form isn't a concern

If he is not playing week in week out, and playing poorly when he gets the chance, surely you can accept that this isn't ideal preparation for international duty? Isn't it fair to have a pessimistic outlook when his past and current performances at club level are sub standard?

No I don't think it is fair, because it's a view that focuses on his performances in a dreadful Preston team over his international record and doesn't take into account the fact he's moved to a new team. It's also a view which would rather idly speculate on him being a dud player and ignore all evidence to the contrary. It's a view that gives the player absolutely no benefit of the doubt and is overwhelming negative. So, yes, unfair.

You surely aren't comparing the years of experience Dunne and Keane have from top flight football to the doc's mediocre existence in the Championship? As for Andrews, if he wasn't playing first team football, I'd strongly question his position in a competitive starting line-up.

Dunne was dreadful last year. Really poor. Was that not a concern? Maybe he'd found his level at a struggling Aston Villa? Maybe he'll never regain form? Dunne's experience may give him the edge but both him and St.Ledger were a concern at club level but very good at international level - so what's really the difference? There ain't much of one.

As for Andrews, he was in and out of the Blackburn team and don't think he started for Ipswich recently (though could be wrong). But I think most would agree he should be the one to partner Whelan in a couple of weeks.

If everyone is available, JoSH and Dunne is our best partnership.

Justify that and show your working. No guesswork or speculation please.

OTT?

Yup.

[ifk101]

No I don't think it is fair, because it's a view that focuses on his performances in a dreadful Preston team over his international record and doesn't take into account the fact he's moved to a new team. It's also a view which would rather idly speculate on him being a dud player and ignore all evidence to the contrary. It's a view that gives the player absolutely no benefit of the doubt and is overwhelming negative. So, yes, unfair.

I'm far from being overwhelming negative. I'm pointing out that his club form is poor and has been for some time (which you agree with - who's the one ignoring the evidence?). If his week in, week out performances are poor, surely you accept that this does not bode well for his future performances at international level. There is a risk involved in playing a player that isn't performing at club level, all the more so when he plays at Championship level. He is a weak link.

Dunne was dreadful last year. Really poor. Was that not a concern?

Of course.

Maybe he'd found his level at a struggling Aston Villa? Maybe he'll never regain form? Dunne's experience may give him the edge but both him and St.Ledger were a concern at club level but very good at international level - so what's really the difference? There ain't much of one.

Bar 1 season in the Championship, Dunne has played top flight football throughout his career and has 60-70 international caps to his name. He is currently first choice at a Premiership club.

In contrast, the doc is a patchy performer in lower tier English club football and is far from first choice in a struggling Leicester City team.

No real difference? I think that's open to debate, don't you?

As for Andrews, he was in and out of the Blackburn team and don't think he started for Ipswich recently (though could be wrong). But I think most would agree he should be the one to partner Whelan in a couple of weeks.

Yes he is playing for Ipswich and if he continues to do so and stays injury free, he is an option to start in the games against Slovakia and Russia.

Justify that and show your working. No guesswork or speculation please.

My school days are long over son. But you'll find that the JoSH - Dunne partnership was broken up to accommodate the doc in the team which I strongly felt at the time was a mistake and still believe JoSh - Dunne is the stronger partnership. If you don't agree (which I suspect you don't ) - that's fine by me.

Yup.

Likewise.