Northern players declaring for the Republic

[Merc67]

Was she not espousing the view that more "memories" should be allowed to infiltrate the myopic worldview of some, somewhat extreme, "nationalists".

How exactly is she "truly a c*nt"? Is that your considered response to anyone who offers a different viewpoint to mono cultural nationalist/republican thinking in Ireland?::

not a considered response - her comments dont deserve one

memories? like the ruination of a culture? the murder of a language? the bigotry? the dividing of the land? the racism? the wonderful elitism? i'm sure she enjoys all of the above...

it's poxy 'im modern, clear minded, un shackled irish individual, proud to deal with the horror of the past with a smile on my face' bull****. of course, she's in an ivory tower as she dictates her speech

im not mono cultural, nowhere near it, im not even ireland for the irish, but im not in favour of 'celebrating' the british influence in this divided land. perhaps in a couple of generations when they've finally gone and the scars are not so vivid.

[Andyh]

you're a brit IN Ireland. simple as. you're wrong, but of course you're entitled to be wrong
when the brits came here they came to destroy all vestige of culture,language and dignity. how can you be the poacher and gamekeeper. its a ****ing joke - just cos you claim you are in your own head doesn't prove anything.


Here:

you say that the flag doesnt represent you in any way, when clearly the orange bit does! so once again, you've got an opinion out of touch with the facts, because you want to.

you just WANT to claim an Irish/British identity to maintain the british superiority over us.

as for the Polish/Irish debate, i dont think there has been a Polish invasion...

Its funny how we get accused of being fascist, but yet you are TELLING us what does and doesn't represent us. As for the brit in Ireland comment, how is this true?? I have a surname shared by many other people in Ireland, and was born and raised in a part of Ireland to Irish parents. Mr Hume and Mr Adams clearly have an English background somewhere along the line, are they also Brits in Ireland. What about Mr McGuinness? he has the English version unlike Mr Maginnis, who has the Gaelic spelling - surely not another Brit in Ireland?

Also if the orange in the tricolour represents us, then surely the "Butcher's Apron" represents all of you, as it contains the red saltire cross of St Patrick's Flag.

[Merc67]

Its funny how we get accused of being fascist, but yet you are TELLING us what does and doesn't represent us. As for the brit in Ireland comment, how is this true?? I have a surname shared by many other people in Ireland, and was born and raised in a part of Ireland to Irish parents. Mr Hume and Mr Adams clearly have an English background somewhere along the line, are they also Brits in Ireland. What about Mr McGuinness? he has the English version unlike Mr Maginnis, who has the Gaelic spelling - surely not another Brit in Ireland?

Also if the orange in the tricolour represents us, then surely the "Butcher's Apron" represents all of you, as it contains the red saltire cross of St Patrick's Flag.

as the folk born in england with Irish passports will tell you, 'Irishness' is more than where you were born.

the union flag evolves, as i have said on this thread before. the st patrick's cross should be removed by now. it wasnt always there, and should not still be.

[Merc67]

then surely the "Butcher's Apron" represents all of you, as it contains the red saltire cross of St Patrick's Flag.

by the by, doesnt the continuing existence of the St Patrick's cross show just how the brits dont get us at all, that and their use of the ****ing 'mainland' when theyre in dublin. it's patronising **** like this that you'd probably love....

[Not Brazil]

Merc,

"you're a brit IN Ireland. simple as"

I'm British, of Ireland. Born and bred.

"when the brits came here"

I didn't "come" here. I have always been here, and always will be here. I was born here, as were my Irish parents, Irish grandparents, Irish great grandparents, Irish great great grandparents and Irish great great great grandparents before me.

This is 2006.

"you say that the flag doesnt represent you in any way, when clearly the orange bit does! so once again, you've got an opinion out of touch with the facts, because you want to."

I have lived through 30 odd years of sustained violence, perpetrated by those who claim to uphold the noble aspiration of the Tricolor, against the culture, tradition and heritage supposedly represented by the "orange bit".

The flag will never have my allegiance. Of course, when I be in Dublin for sporting events, I respect it - but it ain't my flag.

"you just WANT to claim an Irish/British identity to maintain the british superiority over us."

Not true - just a poor attempt to run away from a fact that you find hard to deal with.

Is it not the British/Irish you wish to be united with?

I'm all for an "Island Of Equals".

I feel in no way superior, or inferior, to you.

Speak soon - Off to watch my favourites. Badly need the three points today.

Maybe Donegal Celtic will do us a big favour and hump the Glens. It's a funny old game.

[Andyh]

because you can't. it's only something Brits would claim! it's patronising and insulting to Irish people. it's more than just 'citizenship' we're talking about too, and almost exclusively a debate about northern individuals.

they spend all their ****ing time not wanting to be irish and then claim they are to illustrate how we're part of a ****ing union. 'irish' people are not - the northern state (gerrymandered) is and the brits within it are. NOT Irish people.
scotland and wales are not divided lands with the history of ireland and the WHOLE of both lands are within britain. Ireland is not.
you can be 'northern irish and British' if you want. But not IRISH and British.

and f**k off with you're typical anti-1916 claptrap about the 'blood sacrifice' quote. funny how the west brits always come out with the same one line from 1916 is that to ingratiate yourself with the new me fein Irish who may harbour romantic ideals of the period but balk at any self harm?

and I have yet to meet anybody who is a fan of De Valera's 'Ireland' - have you? or is it just another part of your attempt to paint 'irish' in a negative way?

Who exactly are the 'Brits' to which you continually refer? Just the English? or people from all four nations? just curious....

Also IF Ireland was ever to be united peacefully, people like you would have to face much upheavel also. You would have to realise that not all Irish men and women recognise the 1916 rising as such a grand and noble event. There were Irish men laying down their lives literally by the thousand in the battlefields of Europe - but sure they were obviously brits so that didn't matter.

No, I'm sure not everyone was not a fan of De Valera's Ireland. But neither was everyone here a fan of Craig's Northern Ireland. Yet you seem to be happy to continually cast Northern Ireland in a negative way because of him and others.

[Merc67]

Merc,

I'm British, of Ireland. Born and bred.

this is the basic issue, nobody in the world would agree you can be irish and british. it's like claiming to be proud of the 'father' who raped your mother and conceived you.

"when the brits came here"

I didn't "come" here. I have always been here, and always will be here. I was born here, as were my Irish parents, Irish grandparents, Irish great grandparents, Irish great great grandparents and Irish great great great grandparents before me.

they 'came' here and did nothing to contribute to 'Irish'ness at any stage. it was, and will forever be, an unwelcome and illegal contibution.

"you say that the flag doesnt represent you in any way, when clearly the orange bit does! so once again, you've got an opinion out of touch with the facts, because you want to."

I have lived through 30 odd years of sustained violence, perpetrated by those who claim to uphold the noble aspiration of the Tricolor, against the culture, tradition and heritage supposedly represented by the "orange bit".

yes, violence against fellow 'Irish' for no reason, eh as explained above, the British influence was the cause for this. btw - whats your 'culture?' alster skawts and scone?

"you just WANT to claim an Irish/British identity to maintain the british superiority over us."

Not true - just a poor attempt to run away from a fact that you find hard to deal with.
Is it not the British/Irish you wish to be united with?
I'm all for an "Island Of Equals".

it's not a 'fact'. its a bizarre opinion that not many would agree with. the 'british' in ireland are, and will, always be outsiders. especially if you claim to be irish too. because it is an isult to any irishman tobe called british, as you would probably know if you ever went on holiday with someone from Dublin!

[Merc67]

You would have to realise that not all Irish men and women recognise the 1916 rising as such a grand and noble event. There were Irish men laying down their lives literally by the thousand in the battlefields of Europe - but sure they were obviously brits so that didn't matter.

oh right. 'defending' small nations! as their own were murdered at home. how noble....

[Andyh]

as the folk born in england with Irish passports will tell you, 'Irishness' is more than where you were born.

the union flag evolves, as i have said on this thread before. the st patrick's cross should be removed by now. it wasnt always there, and should not still be.

Well if the folk born in England told me that, I would reply: "you're English of Irish ancestry - not like me who is 100% Irish, born and bred in county Antrim for generations, and before that in counties Monaghan and Leitrim."

I think someone needs to help you brush that chip off your shoulder, oh the terrible brits, they eat children you know. Just out of interest, were you born in England?

[Merc67]

Well if the folk born in England told me that, I would reply: "you're English of Irish ancestry - not like me who is 100% Irish, born and bred in county Antrim for generations, and before that in counties Monaghan and Leitrim."

I think someone needs to help you brush that chip off your shoulder, oh the terrible brits, they eat children you know. Just out of interest, were you born in England?

but you see, they have parents or grandparents. from Ireland. you have those from the north, which in your 'culture' and tradition' was never really 'Ireland' as we know it. it's an outpost of britishness that could be on any land.

i dont hold any issues with modern, living, brits really, lots of friends there, visit often, went to uni in Leeds. enjoy a lot of their culture, but i have major issues with the past and their present opinion of us, their racism.
and reconciling that with someone wanting to be irish and british dont wash.


i'm from Dublin.

[Andyh]

oh right. 'defending' small nations! as their own were murdered at home. how noble....

'Shall not their blood seal a new bond of brotherhood among Irishmen, and cry out in judgement against those who should in future seek to stir up fresh the old hatreds an old divisions that have been the curse of Ireland for centuries?'.

[Andyh]

but you see, they have parents or grandparents. from Ireland. you have those from the north, which in your 'culture' and tradition' was never really 'Ireland' as we know it. it's an outpost of britishness that could be on any land.

i dont hold any issues with modern, living, brits really, lots of friends there, visit often, went to uni in Leeds. enjoy a lot of their culture, but i have major issues with the past and their present opinion of us, their racism.
and reconciling that with someone wanting to be irish and british dont wash.


i'm from Dublin.

Its Ireland Jim, but not as we know it.

Dear oh dear, my paternal grandfather was from Clones, County Monaghan, in your brit free magical kingdom of Ireland, last time i checked. His father was from Mohill, County Leitrim - not even an ulsterman, shock horror. But sure for the pure fact he was a protestant, he must be a Brit, so i guess i don't realy belong here. I'll just go and pack my bags now.....

[EalingGreen]

and here's me thinking i'd stayed out of this for good

Neil Lennon is playing well in the Champions League mate, but he wouldnt get in the 'wee' team? wise up, as they say in your neck of the woods

as for Liz O'Donnell, she's incredibly false isnt she. what a load of codswallop. seems 'modern' ireland forbids any memories to exist. she truly is a c*nt.

Perhaps you should stay out of this - at least until you're a wee bit better informed.

For the record, Sanchez made it crystal clear when he took over, that he was going to give youth its chance. This meant that two of his most talented and experienced central midfielders, Lomas & Hughes, were excluded. It would also most likely have meant the exclusion of Lennon (had he been available), since
he is older than the pair of them.
Their places in midfield have been taken by the excellent Steve Davis (21 y.o.) and Damien Johnson (27 y.o.), with Sammy Clingan (22 y.o.) as cover.
Keith Gillespie is an entirely different case. First, he is a right winger (who can occasionally cover at right back). Second, Sanchez didn't actually pick Keef for his first few games, but Gillespie turned him round by applying himself diligently. Third, he has showed in recent NI games some of the talent that made him part of the Golden Generation at MUFC, or a star of Newcastle United's Champions League exploits. Fourth, he has been playing regularly recently for an English Premiership side.
Finally, he is 31, whereas Lennon is 35.

That is why Lennon would not get selected by Sanchez, whereas Keith Gillespie does.

P.S. I don't know anything about Liz O'Donnell, so I won't comment on her, other than to say that following your charming comment on her (above), my guess is that she can't be all bad...

[EalingGreen]

looks like a seemingly plausible thread has once again been dragged down by the OWC boys who want to lecture us uninformed.

Pardon me, as an NI-born fan of the NI football team, for daring to have an opinion on the topic of Ni-born footballers playing for the NI football team or the ROI football team: how very presumptious of me!

wake up. cop on. you cannot be british and irish - end of discussion.

Sorry, what was that bit about "lecturing"?

EDIT: if you meet the criteria of both 1 and 2 then you may call yourself both irish and british

Ah, I get it now. If I am to determine what I am to think and feel, I must first pass a test devised by you. Thanks for that - I'll start studying straight away, if you'll just send me the reading list and syllabus.

I've just realised you're from Galway; I don't suppose I'll ever pass the test - wrong tribe!

[EalingGreen]

I knew this thread was going to end up like this.

Its a pity that Irish fans are taking the bait from our 'no surrender' comrades.

These guys spend their lives talking about politics and the other usual sh*t over on their own site, leave them to it.

Frankly, it is impossible to address a topic like this without considering the political, constitutional and nationality aspects of it.

It seems to me that your problem is that you disagree with my point of view, therefore you don't feel I have the right to express it.

It would be a pretty poor website if only one "party line" were allowed; one of the attractions of this site for me is that I have learned a great deal about what others think. Some of this I have disagreed with, but other posts have caused me to revise my views.

On which point, you might desist from associating Not Brazil and myself etc with the "no surrender" crowd. There is a thread on this very topic on OWC, where I have made my contempt for the NS ****s abundantly clear - as have the 90% + of respondants who have voted in the associated Poll.

[Merc67]

'Shall not their blood seal a new bond of brotherhood among Irishmen, and cry out in judgement against those who should in future seek to stir up fresh the old hatreds an old divisions that have been the curse of Ireland for centuries?'.

no.
they should have fought for ireland. shame on them.
who said this? a brit.

[crc]

Merc67,

earlier in the thread you told me that you weren't a ranting poster, but I think that your display subsequently disproves that.

How dare you tell anyone else who they are? If I told you that you were actually Croatian, you would probably say that you weren't. I could reiterate that you were a Croatian several hundred times, but it would not change the fact that you consider yourself to be Irish and not Croatian. Similarly, if Not Brazil, or Ealing Green or Andyh tell you that they are Irish AND British then neither you, nor I, nor anyone else can tell them that they aren't.

I am also troubled that your definition of Irishness has to include so many refernces to occupation and 'British' malevolance. I don't deny that these things happened, nor do I think they were good things, but they happenned. There's not a lot we can do about the past, so get over it and think about what you can do in the future.

If I can't appeal to your reasonable side (and on the evidence, I'm not entirely sure you have one), then let me appeal to your purely selfish side:

DO YOU WANT A UNITED-IRELAND?

IF NO - well that's fine. I would accept (though not agree) with this position. If this is the case you should advocate that the Dublin government remove all references to aspiring for a united Ireland. In particular, they should change the name of the State to demonstrate that the United-Ireland goal is dead. The Republic of Ireland international football team should unambiguously be called the Republic of Ireland and perhaps the FAI should become the FARoI. We would all recognise partition, and stop appropriating the geographic terms belonging to 'Ireland' for one side or the other.

IF YES - honestly, what is the best way to achieve it. Let's be frank and realistic. We've tried hoping that the statelet would simply fail because it was too small. That didn't work. I doubt this strategy would work even if you re-partitioned NI so that, for example, Derry, Tyrone and Fermanagh became part of the Republic; we've seen the 'Brits' aptitude for holding on the micro-states in the past (Gibraltar, Malvinas, Channel Island).
We've tried unilaterally declaring that the territory of NI actually belonged to the Republic - that strategy failed miserably aswell. Most abhorently, some Irishmen even tried to bomb and shoot the people of the north-east into submission. This was a catastrophic failure. That 'campaign' may have been based on a mistaken belief that the English ( + the Scots and Welsh)* were the only ones holding up a united Ireland, but its end result was to further alienate about one million people, and eroded almost to the point of no return any feeling of common cause amongst people on this island. And the 'campaign' served as further proof, if any were needed, that a united-Ireland achieved by force would probably not be a united-Ireland worth living in. This isn't your fault or my fault, or even Not Brazil's fault, its just the reality.
Mutual trust has been badly damaged over the last half-century, it will take a lot longer to rebuilt this trust than it took to destroy, and arguably will not start in earnest until people like you realise that it needs to start (on both / all sides)

In the 19th and early 20th Century, nation-building began by first establishing the state. This is no longer the case. Cavour said: "Now that Italy is made, we must make the Italians", well I think that in order for a United-Ireland to happen, we must first make Irishmen, and then we will be able to make Ireland.

Maybe we will never achieve a United-Ireland. That would be unfortunate in my opinion, but any strategy that does not include mutual trust is doomed to failure. I don't know how we will achieve a united-Ireland, but I sure as hell know how we will not achieve it!

And if you answered NO, well its still not a good idea to antagonise your neighbours. They will always be there for as long as you live (and longer)

I appeal to you to consider what I have just written in a calm and thoughtful manner. At the very least consider what it would be like if you were in the other position.




* E,S & W - for clarity.
EDIT: Spelling

[Merc67]

For the record, Sanchez made it crystal clear when he took over, that he was going to give youth its chance. This meant that two of his most talented and experienced central midfielders, Lomas & Hughes, were excluded. It would also most likely have meant the exclusion of Lennon (had he been available), since he is older than the pair of them. (and better

as i said, if he wanted to be there he'd be there, the reason he easily dropped lomas and hughes is they're average and over it, lenny is not.
the only reason the mexican is getting away with leaving people out is cos theyre doing ok. if they werent he'd call ppl back.

[Merc67]

Merc67,

earlier in the thread you told me that you weren't a ranting poster, but I think that your display subsequently disproves that.

some bull cant be left unmentioned. ill try to refrain in future

How dare you tell anyone else who they are?

i can tell you as an Irishman that no Irishman can also be British. that, my friend is a fact. they can try, claim and spout all they want, but it is a misguided claim and a false identity. they can be britons living in ireland. northern irish and british. but not irish and british. it doesnt work.

its all well and good being open minded, fair, yadda yadda, which i mostly am, but this is ********.
i am insulted that someone who is british can also claim to be the smae as i am. THEY are telling me what i am! im telling them what they are not.

DO YOU WANT A UNITED-IRELAND?

whether i do or not, having this 'identity exist is bull. im sorry you typed the rest. i have no will to cave into ******** like this.
the statelet has clearly failed.
irishmen did not try to bomb and shoot the people into submission (your bias)


That 'campaign' may have been based on a mistaken belief that the English ( + the Scots and Welsh)* were the only ones holding up a united Ireland, but its end result was to further alienate about one million people. - no it was 'Brits who thought they owned a part of ireland.
[/QUOTE]

[EalingGreen]

You try and put spin on everything you say, are you a journalist? why don't you find a forum to discuss your views on northern irish football. Every topic you discuss invariably involves you talking about it.

This topic is about Northern Irish footballers and whether they should be allowed to play for the ROI or not. How on earth can anyone debate the topic without including "northern irish football"? Bizarre.

Tell me if neil lennon, captain of celtic, cannot get in the side, why can keith gillespie, an aging journeyman at sheffield united?

I've already addressed this in two other posts. If you consider these don't stand up, please tell me how.

Now lets talk about sammy clingan. He can't help where he was born "republican west belfast". Sammy Clingan is a protestant. Now this doesn't bother me, but why try and put a slant on it, making it appear he is something that he isn't? I'll provide proof if you so wish.

Some other posters seemed to think that the NL case showed how it was impossible for people from a Nationalist/Catholic background to represent NI. I and others pointed out that his place is being taken by Damien Johnson (RC) and Sammy Clingan, from Republican West Belfast. I did not say that Sammy was RC, since I don't know. I would be interested in your proof that he is not. AndyH would be interested as well, I would guess! (And btw, Chris Baird, a former GAA player from Rasharkin, has also filled in in midfield recently)

One more thought occurs, Livehead. If I post on topics about which I have no knowledge, I'm open to get slated for that. Here, I get slated for posting on a topic about which I can claim to know something.

Is there some qualification I should hold before I am allowed even to join this Board. A "Nationality Test", perhaps?