QuoteSo what?Originally Posted by Jamjar
He has retired from international football, and that decision has been accepted and respected by the IFA.
Time to move on from yesteryear.. Neil Lennon obviously has.
I'm not suggesting any hatred of Northern Ireland. If the kid has a preference for the ROI, he should declare it early and leave Northern Ireland to select players who are totally commited to furthering their future international careers with Northern Ireland.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
So what?
He has retired from international football, and that decision has been accepted and respected by the IFA.
Time to move on from yesteryear.. Neil Lennon obviously has.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
This wouldn't be workable to a fair sense in the real world. The only criteria they could use would be to attempt to determine whether a young kid was likely to turn out to be nationalist (and therefore more likely to want to play for ROI) or a unionist. In essence it would only serve to discrminate against young Catholic kids who do indeed wish to play for Northen Ireland.
I agree that for the IFA though the situation seems a bit unfair. Perhaps the FAI should be forced to compensate the IFA for those players that jump ship but maybe only when they get a full senior cap as this is arguably when they start to payback the money that has been invested in their development. If alternatively the FAI had to compensate for the player as soon as he wanted to come over to the ROI setup this could lead to a situation whereby the FAI refuses to give the player the opportunity to be part of the underage squads because of financial implications rather than for pure footballing reasons (which is the important thing at the end of the day).
I agree entirely with the sentiments behind your post (also those of CRC, whose posts on the topic seem eminently reasonable to me).
It is not simply a case of "They're Irish, so they can play for 'Ireland' [sic] anytime, in any circumstances", any more than it is a case of "They're were born in NI, so they can only play for NI".
There are as many shades of grey in this area as there are shades of green elsewhere! Consequently, this needs to be handled with sensitivity and objectivity.
However, Lionel R raises one aspect which particularly concerns me, that of "tapping up". Up until the 1950's, both the FAI and IFA pursued "turf wars", whereby they each reserved the right to select players from the others jurisdiction. Eventually, a "gentleman's agreement" was reached whereby each would respect each others boundaries. This was, AFAIK, set against the background of a FIFA-brokered agreement over flags, emblems, nomenclature etc. all of which appears to have worked tolerably well for most of the next half century.
Of course, it shouldn't be surprising that this came under pressure following the 30 years of the "Troubles", but it is disturbing for NI fans that at a time when relations seem to be improving in NI generally, and in NI football particularly, that only now there appears to be a trend developing of young NI-born and developed players switching to the ROI.
For me, if a youngster genuinely wishes to represent the ROI, then fair enough - that must be his right. In any case, NI probably won't fully benefit from a player whose heart isn't fully in it, regardless of how talented he may be.
However, I can't help wondering how much of an exercise in "free will" such defections represent.
We have players who formerly seemed happy enough to play for NI on numerous occasions, right through to their late teens, suddenly "remembering" their "ROI heritage". Strange.
Of course, some (Tony Kane, perhaps?), may feel they've been messed around by the IFA, or individuals within the IFA, so they decide to change. But international football isn't like club football, where you can move teams if e.g. you fall out with the Manager. Ninety per cent + of other international footballers don't have the luxury of switching in such circumstances.
Aside from such cases, some young players may be falling prey to the influence of people whose interests may not be entirely footballing in scope - neighbours, "community workers", Agents, and a certain political party which otherwise never shows any affection for a "garrison Game", played on a Partitionist basis. Can we really say that a 17 year-old, facing such pressures, is really acting of his own free will?
And more disturbing, in a sense, is the possibility that the FAI may be approaching certain NI youngsters, rather than waiting to be approached. Of course, it is extremely difficult ever to prove that this may be happening, since it is in the interests of both parties to keep quiet. However, both Chris Baird and Keiran McKenna (Spurs Reserve from Fermanagh) have indicated that were approached during Kerr's time, but declined the offer.
And it is but a small step from making a phone call, to making promises and offering inducements of one sort or another. Doubtless, this post will create howls of "Prove it" from some quarters, which is fair enough, but I have alluded to the difficulty of finding proof, above.
Above all, I find it curious that this wasn't happening during the two year period when NI scrapped it's U-21 team for financial reasons, not was it happening very often during the period when the political climate round the NI team was horrible and the team was playing ****e. All three have since been put right, yet players are only now beginning to switch in significant numbers. Further, this wasn't happening a few years back when the ROI was at its peak, playing-wise. (There is also an apparent bias amongst youngsters from the Derry area, that doesn't appear to be reflected amongst players from other Nationalist areas, such as West Belfast, or Newry)
And aside from the sense of grievance felt in NI football circles that we are finding young talent and nurturing it, only to see our efforts hi-jacked by a neighbour with whom we thought we had good relations, there is one, even more serious possible consequence.
Invariably, it is only youngsters from a Nationalist/Catholic background who are switching. As I said, if this is entirly from free will, then we should respect that. But if there should be an element of "tapping up" by the FAI, the effect down the road will be to characterise the ROI as the "Catholic/Nationalist" team in Ireland, with NI being the "Protestant/Unionist" team. This must not be allowed to happen. (It also raises the intersting point that if they are only approaching Catholic youths, then the FAI is discriminating against certain other young Irishmen, on sectarian grounds, by not offering them the opportunity to play for "Ireland")
How awfully ironic if, having endured some pretty terrible times over the last few years, football in NI should now face potentially its greatest threat just at the very time when things appear to be looking up on every horizon, both on and off the field.
It is not the "only crtieria", and it would not "discriminate against young Catholic kids" who wish to play for Northern Ireland.
It would make sure that the IFA are not grooming "luke warm" players for the future benefit of the IFA.
What is this obsession with religious denomination by the way?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
I think it's nonsense to suggest that all young players at 15 or 16 can 100% confirm that they want to commit to one team at the expense of another for the duration of their careers. Surely kids at this age cannot be trusted to make such decisions and it's for this exact reason that FIFA allow all players to switch up until U21 level from any country. NI should be no different in this regard.
So we must therefore conclude that all the change and progress to which so many are referring, inc. NL himself, are in some way unimportant, even illusionary?
For your information, Neil Lennon wouldn't get into the present NI team. When Lawrie Sanchez took over, he clearly stated that he was concentrating on his younger players, at the expense of older players*. Two similarly-talented midfielders with more caps than NL, who fell foul of that policy, were Michael Hughes (b. 1973) and Steve Lomas (b.1974). Lennon was born in 1971.
Plus NL has said that his career has benefited by being able to concentrate solely on Celtic.
Plus the fact that NL's place in the team was taken by Damien Johnson (now 28), who I think may be Catholic. And when Johnson is not available, his deputy is Sammy Clingan, a 22 year old from Republican West Belfast. (Presumably neither of these is "in his right mind", by your reckoning)
Of course, if NL should consider resuming playing for NI, he might seek up-to-date advice from Michael McGovern, captain of the NI U-21 team, who is a goalkeeper at, ahem, Glasgow Celtic.
* - Now where have I heard before of a new "Gaffer" declaring that he is going to build for the future?
Why should they declare ? It would be disappointing if, in this new era, NI were to call for the introduction of some draconian rule which requires kids to declare allegiance if they want to play ball.
The English FA invests lots of money in grass roots football. Guess what kids turn up wearing Scottish, Welsh and Irish shirts & they are allowed to join in!
There are other benefits, which some of the posts are blind to, like how participation in sports contribute to the community - it's not all about grooming the international stars of the future. I'd suggest that building walls, hand-cuffs for young players etc. is not the answer.
Perhaps the IFA should ask itself a different question to one the some of you seem to be tackling:
Instead of "What can these players offer us, and how can we protect our investment"
to
"What can we do to provide better to support young players in our community"
It would definitely be the defining criteria. What other criteria would you suggest then? What screening process can you suggest to properly identify a luke warm attitude of a 14-15 year old kid? Any selection process would inevitably lead to the problems I've mentioned and is unfair on young kids who probably don't know who they'll feel they want to play for 4 or 5 years down the road.
I have none but I think it's reasonable to assume a Catholic from Northern Ireland is far more likely to choose to represent the Republic than a Protestant. If this is an unfair assumption feel free to correct me but I'd imagine a lot of people assume the same.What is this obsession with religious denomination by the way?
Re your first Para, even if the IFA could distinguish political affiliations amongst young teenagerson Nationalist/Unionist lines, how could they distinguish between those young Nationalists who are presently very happy to play for the full NI team, and those who would prefer to play for the ROI?
In any case, since it is only Nationalist/Catholic kids from NI who are getting selected by the ROI, doesn't this suggest it is the FAI who are discriminating, by not offering the opportunity to represent the ROI to kids in NI from a Prod/Unionist background?
Re. your second Para, the net effect of this would be to make the IFA a "feeder" Association for the FAI. Not only would the IFA find this completely unacceptable (outrageous, in fact), but there is no way FIFA would countenance such a suggestion.
Plus, of course, the FAI would take only the best youngsters from NI, which would mean the rest (or the late developers) who don't make it would be unable to revert once more to NI to further their international career, since it is only possible under FIFA Rules to switch Associations once.
Think again, YoungIrish.
wasnt alan kernaghan born in norn iron, or am i completely wrong?
The ROI could not give a damn about their background, only if they could kick a ball reasonably straight.
Speak to FIFA - while you're getting them to stop any NI players opting for Ireland. It was them that changed the rules from your suggestion to whatever it is this week a few years back.
You answered the question here yourself. On the one hand we have the accusation of the FAI 'tapping up' (or as you said on OWC 'inducements' which suggests bungs). On the other, only nationalists are playing for the Republic. Many NI fans have to take their head out of the ar*es and come to terms with the fact that just as Northern based Irish fans don't get 'inducements' (e.g. free tickets in the manner of certain Latin American clubs) to see their country play, some footballers want to play for their country not a regional XI of a country they don't consider their own.
Personally, I'd thoroughly encourage the FAI to come out and say 'anyone who can get an Irish passport - black, white, prod, papist - will be eleigible to play for us'. Knock this stupid 'sectarian' accusation on the head, even if it risks p*ssing off a lot of our Northern
He wasn't. But he was Protestant. I think the FAI at the time forgot to ask his religion.
They couldn't which is the point I made. So are you agreeing with me that its nonsense to suggest on a screening process because it would lead to abuses due to political/religious affiliations, or disagreeing?
I was never suggesting that the IFA should become a feeder organisation for the FAI and nor would it ever amount to that unless this problem starts happening on a far larger scale than currently but compensation is better than other suggestions of locking 14-15 year old kids in NI to their national team for life which FIFA definitely wouldn't agree to. It's also better than the current situation. I don't see a problem if a kid wants to switch to the ROI team from the NI setup, he should have the same options open to him as all other kids playing international football throughout the world (I think currently any player can change international teams if they haven't received a senior cap). Surely if the argument is that the IFA devoted it's resources to the development of these players then compensation can address that complaint. Forcing them to remain NI players is not an alternative option.
Last edited by youngirish; 26/10/2006 at 2:18 PM.
Why must we conclude that ? My attitude obviously has more to do with my age, I remember Billy Binghams era in charge, an era of blatant sectarianism (chants etc.), and so am sceptical of this huge shift, that is not to say it is not happening of course.So we must therefore conclude that all the change and progress to which so many are referring, inc. NL himself, are in some way unimportant, even illusionary?
I personally don't give a flying fúck who plays for NI.
By the way, I don't know who Sammy Clingan is, but I doubt with a name like that, that he is a catholic/nationalist, but again, maybe I'm wrong.
"I just came in to buy a stamp"-Padraig Pearse, April 24th 1916
"It would definitely be the defining criteria. What other criteria would you suggest then? What screening process can you suggest to properly identify a luke warm attitude of a 14-15 year old kid?"
A chat with the kid and his parents?
"Any selection process would inevitably lead to the problems I've mentioned and is unfair on young kids who probably don't know who they'll feel they want to play for 4 or 5 years down the road."
What is unfair is that the IFA are coaching and grooming players for the FAI to utilise at a later date. That has got to stop.
"I have none but I think it's reasonable to assume a Catholic from Northern Ireland is far more likely to choose to represent the Republic than a Protestant. If this is an unfair assumption feel free to correct me but I'd imagine a lot of people assume the same"
I would have thought it was a nationalist/republican from Northern Ireland is far more likely to choose to represent the Republic than a Unionist/Loyalist.
Being someone who doesn't really understand the differences between two very similar strands of exactly the same religion, I tend to think the issue is one of national identity rather than denominational allegiance.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
You are wrong.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
I'm sure both the IFA and the FAI will be doing so, prior to representatives from both Associations sitting down together and amicably agreeing a way forward to the mutual satisfaction of both.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Not for the first time either
On a lighter note:
Ian Paisley is in a coma for 10 years, he wakes up with Ian jnr. at his side.
"What's been happening for the last 10 yrs. son"
"Oh Da, it's terrible, there's a united Ireland now, we all have to speak Irish, and most of our church has converted to catholicism"
"That's unbelievable" says the big man.
"But Da, its not all bad news" says Ian jnr.
"Linfield won the cup again".
"Thats great son, what was the score ?"
"2-10 to 5 points " !!
"I just came in to buy a stamp"-Padraig Pearse, April 24th 1916
The IFA asked itself the latter question some time ago, and are very pro active in supporting young players throughout Northern Ireland.
Not really the issue tho, is it?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
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