QuoteThis issue is relevant to footbal fans of both the North and the Republic and IMO has been discussed by everybody in a responsible and articulate manner.
Peace man
And while I accept entirely your point about Gibson and Wilson, why are other players (Kane & O'Connor, for instance), suddenly opting for the ROI, when previously they were happy to represent NI on numerous occasions?
With regard to Kane, he had commited himself to the Ireland set up over 2 years ago and was named in the u17 squad in 2004, he was however 'persuaded' by someone within the IFA organisation to continue playing for the North. Kane now has obviously decided that his future lies with the Ireland set up.
Gibson, Wilson & Kane have all been part of (or had links with-Kane) the Ireland underage set up for a number of years, so i still don't see why playing for their country is becoming such a big issue now.
Kevin Deery, Eugene Ferry & Mark Mukendi from Derry are currently playing for Ireland at various levels - whats the problem ??
Threads like this are always going to be highjacked by some who have more interest in pushing a political point rather than having a real interest in football, so i'll leave you to it.
To be honest i'm more interested in seeing Shane Long keep his place up front for Reading this Saturday than i am having a slagging match with people who seem more interested in politics than football.
Foot.ie is a great site and covers all aspects of Irish football, it isn't ravaged with politics and negativity like some other football sites on this island, long may it continue.
Goodnight & good luck.
This issue is relevant to footbal fans of both the North and the Republic and IMO has been discussed by everybody in a responsible and articulate manner.
Peace man
We've had 'tapping up,' 'inducements', 'neighbours', 'community workers', 'Agents', 'a certain political party.' What else? Parents? Siblings? Social workers? That old favourite, Gloryhunting? Oh no, that can't be it as we're the cr*p ones now, so it must be not being able to get into the team. Failing that it must be because they - or the FAI - are bigots.
Ealing Green, Not Brazil and all those muppetts spitting fire on ourweeminds: I'd hate to be the bloke that had to dump you load of girls. What a bunch of bunnyboilers! One eejit from Donegal even wants to '...create hell about it. How about waiting at the airport and asking Givens, Kane and O'Connor to explain? The fans want answers!' Glenn Close has got nothing on this w*nker.
Isn't about time you all moved on. As I say to anyone that's been given the dear John, there's plenty more fish in the sea. With all the immigration going on in England, I'm sure you'll pick up a couple of Maik Taylor's that aren't good enough to play for the mother country to make up for this and future dissapointments.
PS: Ealing Green, do you actually have some proof of interference with these two kids from Sinn Fein? Or is this the usual horsesh*t that I've come to expect from you?
Originally Posted by crc
isnt the northern side a de-facto unionist team as things stand? forget the claims of chanting, jerseys in the crowd etc - but isnt that what they, their anthem, their flag stand for? i fail to see anything but that....
as for the 'nationalist' team, i feel that brings a certain politicisation of the 'ireland' team (which is waht it says on the shirt)... there isnt and never has been that politicisation of the 'nationalist' team, and just cos some citizens of the O6 want to play for their 'national' team doesnt make it so.
you cannot say it's another side of the same coin. are players from dublin, cork etc nationalists? i dont think so. so why make the label for those in the north. that, my friend is true partitionism.
i look at the team i watch in green as being representative of the whole island and this recent issue proves it can be. people who want to call themselves Irish and british (an impossibility imo) are the only ones who exclude themselves from this team.
that, is a political decision.
thanks for that
but are you sure that was such a bad decision for the IFA, i always thought Kernaghan was a bit of a joke
Merc67,
"isnt the northern side a de-facto unionist team as things stand? forget the claims of chanting, jerseys in the crowd etc - but isnt that what they, their anthem, their flag stand for? i fail to see anything but that...."
Northern Ireland (the entity) is, rightly or wrongly, part of the United Kingdom.
The only way that changes is at the ballot box.
Northern Ireland (teams), at all levels, are cross community.
I have been a long time advocate of a new, sporting, Anthem for sporting events held in Northern Ireland - whether that be football, GAA, whatever.
I want to see an Anthem that is uniquely Northern Irish - as per Wales & Scotland, for our international team.
As for flags - the official flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag. The IFA actually remove the Union Flag from Windsor Park for international fixtures.
FIFA recognise the old Stormont flag (The Ulster Banner) as the official flag of our teams.
After much debate with fellow fans, I would be broadly in agreement to the formation of a new Northern Irish flag.
Having said all of that, none of it will change Northern Ireland's constitutional position within the Union.
"as for the 'nationalist' team, i feel that brings a certain politicisation of the 'ireland' team (which is waht it says on the shirt )... there isnt and never has been that politicisation of the 'nationalist' team, and just cos some citizens of the O6 want to play for their 'national' team doesnt make it so"
Of course, that ignores the fact that the citizens of the 06 who are declaring for the Republic are "nationalists", expressing their desire to play for their "nation". That, my friend, is political.
"you cannot say it's another side of the same coin. are players from dublin, cork etc nationalists? i dont think so. so why make the label for those in the north. that, my friend is true partitionism."
Does this "patriotism" not involve political sentiment?
"i look at the team i watch in green as being representative of the whole island and this recent issue proves it can be. people who want to call themselves Irish and british (an impossibility imo) are the only ones who exclude themselves from this team"
Firstly, I am proudly Irish and British. That's not an "impossibility", it's a stone wall fact. Dail Minister, Liz O'Donnell, was acknowledging this very real identity within the last few days. A welcome and overdue recognition.
Our very shirts confirm our Irishness. On there is a Celtic Cross, Shamrocks and the name of our Association - the IRISH Football Association.
I look at the team I watch in green as being representative of Northern Ireland. I was born in Northern Ireland, both my late parents were born in Northern Ireland, I live in Northern Ireland, I work in Northern Ireland and my two children were born in Northern Ireland. I support Northern Ireland. It's very simple.
"that, is a political decision"
It's not. It's a decision based on my place of birth. Belfast, Northern Ireland.
A "political decision" would be one whereby I turned my back on my home Association because I do not recognise/support/agree with the entity called Northern Ireland.
I fully accept that a sizeable minority in Northern Ireland do not recognise/support/agree with the entity called Northern Ireland, and seek it's demise.
On the topic of defections to the Republic, I want to see the best interests of the Irish Football Association served, but would not wish to deny the right of a young nationalist from Northern Ireland to declare for the Republic.
I would like to see that declaration made earlier in their career.
I have little doubt that the matter will be resolved satisfactorily between the IFA & the FAI, with input from FIFA.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
True, but I don't think the situation is black and white, and there are definate signs that the IFA and NI Fans are making a genuine effort to be more inclusive (though I agree, they could take a giant step by reforming the flag and anthem issue).
But almost everything in Ireland is political. The mere fact that that you refer to the 'occupied six counties' is proof of this. Don't get me wrong, I continue to think that guys from Derry, Antrim, or wherever should be able to play for the Republic - the team which I support - but I don't pretend that the issue isn't political.as for the 'nationalist' team, i feel that brings a certain politicisation of the 'ireland' team (which is waht it says on the shirt
I'm not making the label, just offering a reailstic analysis of the situation in the north. Rightly or wrongly, in the north the RoI team is viewed as the 'Nationalist team'.
As it happens, I am absolutley not a partitionist. In fact, there is very little els that could more closely describe my political views than anti-partitionism. Simply because I am not in favour of re-partition (i.e. shifting the border, or the imagined border, further to the north-east) does not mean I am in favour of the existing border.
By suggesting that being Irish and British are mutually exclusive you are ensuring that the 'Ireland' team (as you and many others call it) does not, in fact, represent everyone in Ireland.
I'm not British, and have no desire to be British, but I don't make not-being-British a defining feature of my Irishness. This is at least partly because I realise that there are a great many people in Ireland who value their British heritage without that making them any less Irish. Only when you force them into a binary conundrum, do they tend to chose the former over the latter, but it need not be so.
Alan Kernghan was no joke. He had a terrible game v Spain in October 1993 when too many players and fans expected an easy ride to the world Cup. He wasn't the only one to have astinker that day.
He also had some great games for us such as Denamrk away 92 and played very well in Windsor Park in Nov 93 when we qualified for the World Cup. He lost out to a classy looking Phil Babb after that. Babb was a decent defender with loads of talent before he went off the rails.
Alan Kernaghan was a tough no nonsense defender who always gave 100% in a green shirt. We can ask no more than that.
Would Kernaghan get in the current team?
Yes, the equivalent would be a young captain of a premiership team, playing consistently well fotr them, and for us in play offs (with, as was mentioned, the exception of Spain). He put in some tremendous performances for Ireland and at one stage looked to be a likely permanent fixture.
Would certainly be called up before a centre back (with great potential) on the bench for a team a division down.
Broadminded, magnanimous AND inclusive. Some people really are givers.
Listen I didn't hold my fire over on their board when it came to those who'd like to tell people who they can and cannot be nor what they are and are not. I'll not hold back here either. Some of the very best people to pull on our jersey consider themselves Irish and British at the same time. If you've any doubts as to that then you're being very naive and unfair with it.
Some of the very best people to pull on their jersey ditto as well as no small amount who wouldn't consider themselves British at all either.
Their teams, at all levels, have been consistently balanced and reflective of the entire community.
Their support has had some right hairy patches down the years -but right now ...they're second to none.
You see their enthusiasm matched by our away support at times - but scarcely by Lansdowne.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
Ealing Green posted these links to the FIFA site on the ourweecountry forum.
http://www.fifa.com/documents/static...09_2005_EN.pdf
See Article 15 (Pg. 33/39)
http://www.fifa.com/documents/static...ransfer_EN.pdf
Annex 2, Article 1 Conditions (Pg. 29/44)
These are the rules that determine whether or not O'Connor and Kane can play for us.
I'd be interested i nany interpretations of these as to how the F.A.I. deem them eligible. I have my own theory which I've posted on owc and will do here but for those who haven't seen it I'd rather you try and come up with your own.
The assumption being that in each case they were born in Northern Ireland, or NI parentage and grandparentage and never lived in the Republic.
The problem that needs to be looked into is not why are the FAI stealing our players? What should be looked into is why don't we look at our team and our national setup to try to understand why so many young Northern Irish footballers don't feel they want to be a part of it?
From reading some of the posts its obvious to me that some of the Northern Ireland supporters have a very real sense of fear and/or paranoia regarding the south trying to steal their players/disband their team etc. This is not the FAI's problem as far as I can see it. Why should we not take their players if they don't want to play for their own national team? It's the IFA that need to look at themselves.
And I love some of the ignorance that states everything is fine regarding the north and their support at the moment. If everything was fine your team would equally represent both sides of the community and your players would not be jumping ship in f**king droves from one side of that community. Look at these problems, closer to home and stop being paranoid about the South trying to sabotage your team. I personally don't care if Darron Gibson and Co plays for us or not. It won't make much difference to our team in the long run.
Last edited by youngirish; 27/10/2006 at 9:32 AM.
im not even going to bother debating the noise levels and enthusiasm of their support - so what? ibrox can be raucous at times too
as for the players who have considered themselves British 'and' Irish i take it you mean folk like Cascarino, Houghton, McAteer etc? in fairness, it's a very different issue as they are not making some sort of political statement, merely stating an obvious fact that has come around thanks to a FIFA ruling that allows you to be born and bred in one country and represent another.
heck, we could have someone that is both Irish and Polish very easily... so as i said, not really the same issue.
the irish and british people i have issue with are those born on the island of ireland. i could go into it but im not really sure i want to rant and it prob doesnt belong here..
but the belief system is f**ked up and patronising generally - witness the darts commentator on Sky last night covering the Grand Prix in Dublin.
"the next (english) loser will be on the ferry back to the mainland immediately..." - this is the sort of rubbish you get when people believe its possible to be irish and british....
Article 15.1 makes them eligible.
Article 15.3(a) makes them eligible
Article 15.3(b) makes them eligible
annex 2, article 1.2 then basically goes against local legislation, which is particularly sensitive in this area. i dont think anyone can, with a straight face, argue that because FIFA say it, it should overrule the legal possession of a passport which entitles someone to play for the 'south'.
Last edited by Merc67; 27/10/2006 at 9:39 AM.
Whilst I would doubt the "f**king droves" assertion, allow me to pose a question to you.
Bearing in mind that the Northern Ireland team will always represent the entity that is Northern Ireland, what changes do you suggest that would enable all young players born in Northern Ireland to represent Northern Ireland with pride?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
there wouldn't be any that would totally make this possible. nationalists, clearly, are against the very existence of the state so why would they want to represent it?
you seem to underestimate the very powerful image that is the 'statelet's flag and where it is mostly seen. why would someone who is completely against this endorse it?
if you are to take only footballers, mostly airheads who would do anything to get a game and a few quid, then i'd imagine negating the 'british' feel would go some way to making a change...
I don't get your point Merc67.
If the darts thrower is English, he's not claiming to be Irish and British.
He is English and British.
Being born and bred in Belfast, I am Irish and British.
You may have issues with that, but it's a reality that byou'll have to come to terms with.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
So why would the IFA & Northern Ireland fans want to make changes to appease those who are against "the very existance of the State"?
Our teams represent the entity that is Northern Ireland - that is non negotiable.
For so long as there is an entity called Northern Ireland, there will be teams representing Northern Ireland.
And you claimed the issue of young nationalists choosing to declare for the Republic was not political?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
i won't come to terms with it. apologiesi'll rail against it and anyone who attempts to push that ideology, it is false, it doesnt work. it's offensive and harks back to the day when irish people were lampooned on Punch magazine. your people were the ones doing the lampooning, now you want to be Irish? ****ing hell.
re: the darts commentator - this just shows how yuo cannot be Irish. he said the 'mainland' - like we're a ****ing little island off britain that belongs to them. im sorry, that just gets my goat, and you didnt even notice it. you are not irish. you're a northern 'citizen' who holds a british passport. no part of ireland is british, there are british people in ireland.
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