Northern players declaring for the Republic

[Dodge]

So are any of these players any use?

[Merc67]

So are any of these players any use?

i'm sorry, is this a thread about football now!!



gibbo and kane are ok, won't really know for a few years tho...

[EalingGreen]

the 'british' in ireland are, and will, always be outsiders.

"The Muslims in England are, and will, always be outsiders"

"The Jews in Germany are, and will, always be outsiders"

"The Culchies in Dublin are, and will, always be outsiders"

"The Poles in Cork are, and will, always be outsiders"

"And the Catholics in Northern Ireland are, and will, always be outsiders, which is why they will never play football for Northern Ireland"

Discuss.

[Next Week, a debate on Ethnic Cleansing]

[Merc67]

"The Muslims in England are, and will, always be outsiders"

"The Jews in Germany are, and will, always be outsiders"

"The Culchies in Dublin are, and will, always be outsiders"

"The Poles in Cork are, and will, always be outsiders"

"And the Catholics in Northern Ireland are, and will, always be outsiders, which is why they will never play football for Northern Ireland"

Discuss.

[Next Week, a debate on Ethnic Cleansing]

please don't extrapolate concepts by such facetious methods. until the territorial claim britain holds here is gone, it will remain thus.
i dont think brits in dublin have anything to worry about, i mean people who think they are brits AND Irish...
but then you knew that and just wanted to pull out the one line you thought gave you cause to have a go
and if you want to have a debate on ethnic cleansing, its funny cos those people who want to be irish now were the ones originially attempting to cleanse this land of them... but sure, let's not mention that eh. eyes forward!
your point about the catholics tho is fairly spot on even though you didnt intend it so. if they have to stand for another country's n.anthem and flag then its clear to see...

[EalingGreen]

as i said, if he wanted to be there he'd be there, the reason he easily dropped lomas and hughes is they're average and over it, lenny is not.
the only reason the mexican is getting away with leaving people out is cos theyre doing ok. if they werent he'd call ppl back.

Now you really are looking silly. I'm no huge fan of Lomas either way, but Michael Hughes was a magificent player for NI, winning 73 caps down the years, and unquestionably was our best outfield player during the dreadful times.
During the years when NL and MH were together in the team, every observer would tell you that Michael invariably played above himself, whereas Neil often played below his club form. This was not anything to do with their respective effort, just one of those things that happens with international teams.
When Lawrie took over, MH was playing in the English Premiership, whereas NL was in the Scottish Premiership. He is also two years younger than NL.

And who is this "mexican", btw? Or do you mean Lawrie Sanchez - born in England, of an Ecuadorean father and Belfast mother?

And what Nationality does that make him?

[EalingGreen]

i can tell you as an Irishman that no Irishman can also be British. that, my friend is a fact.

No, Merc67, that is an opinion. And this Irishman holds a different opinion.

However, my Passport states that I am a citizen* of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". That, my friend, is a fact.


(* - They no longer say "subject", you'll be surprised to know! )

[Merc67]

When Lawrie took over, MH was playing in the English Premiership, whereas NL was in the Scottish Premiership. He is also two years younger than NL.

And who is this "mexican", btw? Or do you mean Lawrie Sanchez - born in England, of an Ecuadorean father and Belfast mother?

And what Nationality does that make him?

now your looking stupid. are we talking about now - or when michael hughes was decent?
i thank you.

as for the mexican, its a nickname a fried of mine from up north has for Lawrie

[EalingGreen]

your point about the catholics tho is fairly spot on even though you didnt intend it so. if they have to stand for another country's n.anthem and flag then its clear to see...

So not only am I not Irish, but those players such as Chris Baird, Damien Johnson, Sammy Clingan etc who stand for "another country's n.anthem and flag" presumably aren't Catholic/Nationalist/Irish*?

Fair enough, you've put me in my place; why don't you put them straight, as well? That's when you've finished telling Willie John McBride who and what he is...

(* - Delete as applicable)

[Merc67]

No, Merc67, that is an opinion. And this Irishman holds a different opinion.

However, my Passport states that I am a citizen* of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". That, my friend, is a fact.


(* - They no longer say "subject", you'll be surprised to know! )

exactly - it doesnt say youre 'Irish'! jaysus, when will ye get it.
your a 'citizen' of the northen state, that never has or never will claim to be irish. what youre doing is trying to paint Irish people as british citizens, something which perpetuates the racism and superiority of cocky englsih ****ers, who are essentially the true brits. cmon now, we all know london rules the 'union'.
people like you and the stupid belief of the brits that irish people want to be part of their little clique (those who say 'mainland' when theyr in dublin) really do my tits in

[Merc67]

So not only am I not Irish, but those players such as Chris Baird, Damien Johnson, Sammy Clingan etc who stand for "another country's n.anthem and flag" presumably aren't Catholic/Nationalist/Irish*?

Fair enough, you've put me in my place; why don't you put them straight, as well? That's when you've finished telling Willie John McBride who and what he is...

(* - Delete as applicable)

note, i never mentioned religion once.

they are obviously happy to be 'northern irish' and tagged as such. as was Lenny at one stage, clearly half hearted because he couldnt play for his true national team and as a career move. im sure their real national identity will be arrived at not by looking at the colour of their shirt...

[lopez]

F*ck me it's moved on in a couple of hours.

lopez,

"Firstly: The vote was taken seperately, which undermines its democratic validity. When one vote is taken to include the whole of Ireland, I'll consider the matter 'settled."

The GFA was endorsed by the overwhelming majority of those who voted on it on the island of Ireland. The GFA settled the constitutional question of Northern Ireland.

How would you think a straight vote in the island would go for a. keeping the status quo or b. creating a united Ireland? As it was one 'country' when your football association was formed surely its fair that a retrospective vote should be taken, or has it just become a country since 1921? And would you be happy about partitioning the 6C? You're not even happy about losing two footballers let alone possibly 3/4 million people.

"The point I'm making is that Ireland do not issue British passports, therefore it's not Ireland that can decide on whether anyone in Ireland can get a British passport."I do not believe that in the event of a "New Ireland" being created, that those in that "New Ireland" would be denied British citizenship/passport by the British Government. In fact, i believe that would be a fundamental facet under an agreed, "New Ireland".

Past performance, according to my Unit Trusts, does not guarantee anything, but if used as a guideline, in an United Ireland, yours will be the last generation. It is however something that I would strongly urge you to fight for.

"The British government has already washed its hands of unionists born in the three Ulster counties within the Republic"
Shame on them. Don't be surprised to see that position changed.

Well it wasn't just them. I think Ulster Unionism has to take a part of the blame? I can forgive Craig the myopia, but Carson. The w*nker was from Dublin.

As for a change on passport allocation, have you got any news on a campaign or forthcoming change of policy? It can't be that the British government are frightened of a few thousand 'Paddies' steaming into the country, which stopped them handing out passports to the Hong Kongers. At the end of the day it's the British government you need to contact on this matter. Good luck, but I think they should help their opressed kith and kin in a dogs dinner like Zimbabwe, before their half in - half out citizens of a EU partner.

"I used to work with a Ballymena United fan who had one." And how did he/she identify?

Complex charachter. He was at the 1978 NI game with us, involved in a punch-up etc., and had Red Hand tatoos everywhere. Called us the NI B team, and me and my mate 'plastic Paddies', but the last time I saw him was the late eighties/early nineties. On the other hand someone called him a 'loyalist' one day and he hit the roof, claiming he wasn't loyal to the crown etc. He didn't it seem like Brenda. Also once married to a Basque woman who was later incacerated during the Franco years for 'something she never did.' He too was also a guest of a head of state, although he was cleared of stabbing a Catholic policeman at his trial. I liked the bloke.

And if we're asking questions, why did you get an Irish passport?

"Frankly, I'm surprised given your hostile comments about the ROI etc. and the tricolour" I don't think I was particularly "hostile" about the Tricolor - I stated that it is a flag that does not represent me in any shape or form, and never will. Your hostility towards Irishmen (born and bred) like myself, The Union Flag, Britain, The United Kingdom etc is clearly on a different level.

I'd like to see the Fitzgerald saltire removed. Scottish and Welsh independence does not interest me the slightest. Bad for the share prices I'm afraid.

"As for rugger, given that I have already stated that the Irish rugby team should play under two flags and two anthems, what do you think?" Two seperate teams maybe?

Why not? Anything to get rid of Ireladn's Call. I think it's a popular move amongst the NI fans? And it wouldn't make much difference although I think Trimble's an assett. But I think you'll get a more de facto RC and Protestant Irish teams than football that way. Ironically, I'd say the Republic would be more mixed.

Were Trevor Ringland and Tyrone Howe not fit to wear an Ireland shirt, because, in your myopic opinion, they are not Irish?

Does an Irish passport prevent you playing for NI? Once again, I'm talking about citizenship and nationality. That's what is at the heart of this thread concerning these two players. Their desire to play for their nation and the right that having Irish citizenship gives them to play for said nation.

[as_i_say]

Ealing you talk some sh ite don't you. Its not our fault that you have an identity crisis and don't know what to call yourself. I normally feel sorry for most unionists up there in that regard-they dont know whether they're coming or going-what flag should i bring to windsor this time? am i an ulsterman today, a brit, northern irish?

-its like trying to decide what pair of socks to wear while you're at it.

Whatever it says on your passport doesnt change the fact that london would love nothing more than to have you and your ilk excommunicated from their little union. But then that would mean we'd have to put up with you and your type-which isnt exactly appealing.

[lopez]

note, i never mentioned religion once...

You don't need to with Eailing. He'll bring it up for you. Watch out for the discussion switching to old fart cuts from 1915 by Ginger Lynn, followed by some Greek philosophy.

By the way surely our friends are not British but United Kingdomers. You see in Spanish, American is described as either 'Americano' or 'estadounidense'. I've yet to see 'reinounidense' as a description for 'British' although I've heard a few other words that aren't particularly complimentary. Anyway, my new found friends will forthwith be refered to as 'reinounidense' by me. I'm sure they'll be happy with it's inclusivity. It could eventually end up in the Real Academia Diccionario if its usage is taken up when the North face Spain next year. Still don't make dem Oirish vough.

[EalingGreen]

Ealing you talk some sh ite don't you. Its not our fault that you have an identity crisis and don't know what to call yourself. I normally feel sorry for most unionists up there in that regard-they dont know whether they're coming or going-what flag should i bring to windsor this time? am i an ulsterman today, a brit, northern irish?

-its like trying to decide what pair of socks to wear while you're at it.

Whatever it says on your passport doesnt change the fact that london would love nothing more than to have you and your ilk excommunicated from their little union. But then that would mean we'd have to put up with you and your type-which isnt exactly appealing.

I most certainly don't have an identity crisis, so no blame attaches to you or anyone else.

Quite simply, I am an Irishman, born and bred in Ireland, of Irish ancestry going back hundreds of years.
More specifically, I am a Northern Irishman. I consider myself fortunate in this, since I am also a Unionist and this allows me membership of the United Kingdom, along with my Scottish, Welsh and English compatriots, so that I can call myself "British" (a privilege denied to my relatives in the Free State after partition)
And, of course, I am also a European, even if I disagree with much of the consequences of my country's membership of the EU.
In this way, I see the issue of identity and nationality as being "tiered", or overlapping, but when asked at what level I most wish to be identified, it is my Northern Irishness which is most important to me and best reflects what I am.

Consequently, I do not see nationality or identity as "black and white" in the same way as you and certain others seem to, nor do I consider it a sign of "weakness" that I accept there may be overlaps in establishing ones place in the scheme of things. It is those people who demand certainty on such matters who seem to me to be the most insecure.
Above all, when others in similar circumstances draw a different conclusion, I would not dare to tell them they are wrong, never mind that they don't even have the right to a view.

Which brings us back to the very essence of this thread. In my ideal world, all of my fellow Northern Irishmen and women would be happy to play for or support the NI football team.
However, I accept (regrettably) that many of them feel unable to do so. Therefore, if their allegiance is to another football team (and some follow England, for reasons which I'll never fully understand!), then so be it.
In fact, my concern is not that some youngsters opt for the ROI, rather it is that we in NI may be using scarce resources to develop good young talent for the benefit of another, rival Association.
And this concern will be greatly aggravated should it turn out that the rival Association in question, whilst overtly pursuing friendly relations, should at the same time also be covertly approaching or even inducing our young players to defect in the latter stages of their development.

I don't feel I am being unfair in expressing this concern, but no doubt people will "put me right" if I am. And God knows, I might even accept what some of them have to say. (So that's you out, As I Say, Merc67 and Lopez! )

[Not Brazil]

Merc97,

"i am insulted that someone who is british can also claim to be the smae as i am. THEY are telling me what i am! im telling them what they are not."

I am certainly not telling you what you are. I fully acknowledge what you are - at no time in the discussion have I disputed what you are, ot attempted to tell you what your not - except to point out that you are clearly not a United Irelander.

I'm sorry that you are "insulted" by my identity, but that isn't going to change. I'm British and Irish. I am home. I ain't going anywhere.

Totally confident, absolutely happy in my identity. Sure and steadfast about what I am. Unapologetic, unashamed and unbreakable in my identity.

If you cannot deal with that, it's your problem, not mine.

Now, perhaps you would answer the following.

1/ Do you want a true and durable peace on this island?

2/ If yes, how do you envisage this can be brought about?

3/ What is My role in YOUR future, ie, our shared future on this small island?

4/ What are your thoughts on French Canadians and Irish Americans?

[Not Brazil]

lopez,

"How would you think a straight vote in the island would go for a. keeping the status quo or b. creating a united Ireland?"

Irrelevant.

The GFA makes it quite clear how a change in the constitutional status of Northern Ireland can come about.

That Agreement was endorsed by the onverwhelming majority of people in this island.

It's done, over, finished, sorted, signed, sealed and delivered.


"Past performance, according to my Unit Trusts, does not guarantee anything, but if used as a guideline, in an United Ireland, yours will be the last generation. It is however something that I would strongly urge you to fight for"

I believe in any such agreed New Ireland, the right of those who wish to be British citizens will be upheld and ringfenced.

As in a Unit Trust investment, diversity is key.


"Well it wasn't just them. I think Ulster Unionism has to take a part of the blame? I can forgive Craig the myopia, but Carson. The w*nker was from Dublin"

Shame on all those involved.

"As for a change on passport allocation, have you got any news on a campaign or forthcoming change of policy?"

I don't believe it will take much changing - it's just that's it's down the shopping priority list a little.

We are talking about a relative few people who would feel disadvantaged by the current position. That will make changing the current position easier.


"And if we're asking questions, why did you get an Irish passport?"

It was available to me quicker than I could get a British one at the time. I got it in the interest of expediency.


"Why not? Anything to get rid of Ireladn's Call. I think it's a popular move amongst the NI fans? And it wouldn't make much difference although I think Trimble's an assett."

You don't like "shoulder to shoulder, to answer Ireland's call...four proud Provinces of Ireland"?

Given the debate, I can understand why.

I don't mind it, as it happens.

I wouldn't like to see two teams. I am content with the current and historical position.

"But I think you'll get a more de facto RC and Protestant Irish teams than football that way"

Quite possibly...but as I don't give a fiddlers about the minute differences between two very similar strands of exactly the same religion, your point is of little interest to me to be honest.

"Ironically, I'd say the Republic would be more mixed"

See above.

"Does an Irish passport prevent you playing for NI?"

No.

"Once again, I'm talking about citizenship and nationality. That's what is at the heart of this thread concerning these two players. Their desire to play for their nation and the right that having Irish citizenship gives them to play for said nation"

Once again, I reiterate that my gripe is that those who wish to play for the Republic should do so sooner rather than later.

[co. down green]

ealing

I think you are missing the point.

It not a question of players and supporters in the North having an allegiance to ‘another’ team, many have a natural allegiance to our team, the Irish team.

UEFA clarifacion on the issue will make players fully aware of their international choices from an early age.

As I mentioned in an earlier post it‘s important for the FAI to put structures in place to cater for young players form Belfast, Derry, Lurgan etc. who wish to represent Ireland at international level and an extension of the current development and training programmes etc..Into the 6 Northern counties would put in place the necessary provision for these young players to develop, without having to use the IFA structures at youth level, as has been the case in the past

In my ideal world, a single team would represent Ireland , but failing that, I am more than happy (and proud) to follow an Irish team made up of players and supporters from all over this Island with players from Belfast & Derry playing alongside players from Dublin, Cork & Donegal.

You have failed to produce any evidence of your ‘imaginary’ tapping up or inducement theory and as I have pointed out previously, Gibson & Wilson grew up following Ireland & Kane was named in the Ireland u17 squad over two years ago , so this poaching bo***cks has no foundation.

[Dodge]

MOved to current affairs (aka the politics forum)

Anybody's opinion change because of this debate?

[Not Brazil]

It not a question of players and supporters in the North having an allegiance to ‘another’ team, many have a natural allegiance to our team, the Irish team.

Just a small point, but you missed the word "other" in your sentence.

There are, of course, two Irish teams.

One represented by the Irish Football Association - the original Association in Ireland - the other by the, post partition, Football Association Of Ireland.

Just wanted to clarify that before I head off for a few adult refreshments.

[lopez]

lopez,

"How would you think a straight vote in the island would go for a. keeping the status quo or b. creating a united Ireland?"

Irrelevant. The GFA makes it quite clear how a change in the constitutional status of Northern Ireland can come about. That Agreement was endorsed by the onverwhelming majority of people in this island. It's done, over, finished, sorted, signed, sealed and delivered.

Nice spin. Notice how you avoided the fact that you pull out the old 'IFA have more right to be Irish than the FAI' in earlier threads (and looking at it now later threads) while denying that any legitimacy to the area they once governed. That is the thing with your identity. There is little consistency apart from 'oh that was where I was born.' BTW: I remember reading once that the Act of Union 1801 began with the words to the effect that Ireland will be forever a part of the United Kingdom. '...done, over, finished, sorted, signed, sealed and delivered' my a*se.

"Past performance, according to my Unit Trusts, does not guarantee anything, but if used as a guideline, in an United Ireland, yours will be the last generation. It is however something that I would strongly urge you to fight for"I believe in any such agreed New Ireland, the right of those who wish to be British citizens will be upheld and ringfenced. As in a Unit Trust investment, diversity is key.

As said, I'd agree with that.

"Well it wasn't just them. I think Ulster Unionism has to take a part of the blame? I can forgive Craig the myopia, but Carson. The w*nker was from Dublin" Shame on all those involved.

Agreed with that too

"As for a change on passport allocation, have you got any news on a campaign or forthcoming change of policy?"I don't believe it will take much changing - it's just that's it's down the shopping priority list a little.

We are talking about a relative few people who would feel disadvantaged by the current position. That will make changing the current position easier.

I don't share your optimism re numbers, but again that side of the business has got sweet fanny adams to do with me, and I couldn't give a f*ck either way. My descendents are guaranteed Irish citizenship unless it is broken and that's all I care about.

"And if we're asking questions, why did you get an Irish passport?"
It was available to me quicker than I could get a British one at the time. I got it in the interest of expediency.

And for a minute I thought it had something to do with this 'I'm Irish' statement you've been stringing.

"Why not? Anything to get rid of Ireladn's Call. I think it's a popular move amongst the NI fans? And it wouldn't make much difference although I think Trimble's an assett."You don't like "shoulder to shoulder, to answer Ireland's call...four proud Provinces of Ireland"?: Given the debate, I can understand why.

Complete Disney sh*te. I like the Soldiers Song thanks. I also like the Sash which is why I'd like that also included.