QuoteI knew this thread was going to end up like this.
Its a pity that Irish fans are taking the bait from our 'no surrender' comrades.
These guys spend their lives talking about politics and the other usual sh*t over on their own site, leave them to it.
First ever British victory for racial discrimination was by an 'Irish' unionist who objected being called 'Paddy' and 'Mick' by workmates. Think it was around 1993 or 94.Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy
I knew this thread was going to end up like this.
Its a pity that Irish fans are taking the bait from our 'no surrender' comrades.
These guys spend their lives talking about politics and the other usual sh*t over on their own site, leave them to it.
Having just read through this thread I think that Not Brazil is getting a raw deal. He/she has been very consistent in what they are saying, and pretty fair-minded too in the face of baiting. It is possible to not have the same point of view but to respect others for it.
Wait 15 years and you'll be meeting plenty of people on this island who consider themselves both Irish and Polish and will have no problem living with this dual identity.....why can't we accord those who feel themselves to be Irish and British the same respect?
Work's Bogey
-interesting debate
lest face facts.
From a footballing point of view it is imeasurably sad that god save the queen is the anthem of the north-it gives no identity whatsoever to the north-its stupid.
the north should adapt burn baby burn by ash as their anthem. kicking tune.
Last edited by as_i_say; 28/10/2006 at 1:03 AM.
I
Here's the really funny bit.
When proud Brits from England come over here from the mainland...they get called English.
Proud to be Irish and British. Happy to be called Irish when I go to the mainland - in fact, I'd be kinda insulted if I wasn't.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
lopez,
"Ahhh, diddums. Did I hurt your feelings there by comparing you with those naughty nazis"
You'll not hurt my feelings.
On the contrary, you made a fool out of yourself.
Oh how I despair of those who demonise the very people they claim they wish to be "united" with.
"The comparison is simple: You claim heritage of one country. You support the occupation of it by another. Oswald Mosely, Vidkung Quisling, Marshal Petain et al all claimed to be from one country and helped/would have helped in the occupation of their country by another. Now there's a history lesson for you."
I was born within the United Kingdom on the island of Ireland.
In my view, Northern Ireland is not "occupied". Anyway, you do understand that the constitutional position of Northern Ireland is now settled, don't you?
Or maybe you missed that recent bit of history?
"Er yes they can and will
I beg to differ.
"Someone with a just a British passport, Irish. LOLNot Brazil, do you think if you were born in a stable you'd be a horse? Even if 400 years of ancestors were born in stables as well."
Deary me.
I can hold both, or either, passports. I have held both Irish and British passports in my time. Many "unionists" have Irish passports.
"OK: I know how sad it makes you feel that I've rejected the lottery ticket of life. Tell you what, despite never having a British passport, I'm told I can still get one. Ask one of your Donegal mates that maybe for performing a blow job on me, they can have mine. That really is as much as it's worth"
I'm not sad at all. You are what you are. Not for me to tell other people what they identify as.
Maybe a little bit of pity for you that you seem to be filled up with contempt and bitterness about other people's identity - but certainly not sad!
Back to the rugby scenario a second.
A player from Northern Ireland, holding a British Passport, of Unionist inclination - should he not be playing for Ireland on account of the fact that, in your eyes, he's not Irish?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
The words of Liz O'Donnell - like crc, a proper United Irelander.
"Now that the vexed quarrel over Northern Ireland with our nearest neighbour is settled perhaps we can begin to celebrate aspects of our Britishness which for too long was suppressed because of nationalistic myths?
"Unionists are a majority in Northern Ireland but a minority on the island.
"The Republic, already more diverse with immigrants, should be a warm place for those with British allegiance.
"Britain and Ireland can at last normalise what was abnormal for neighbouring countries.
"We can begin to explore with excitement and without baggage the entwined lives of Britain and Ireland our common language, literature, pre-independence history, culture and war dead."
Liz knows.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Whatever about your feelings, I'd be making a fool of myself if I went on ourweeminds and tried stating that I'm British on the one hand (given I've no British blood) while being actively hostile to the country on the other and wishing to change its democratic wishes. Cue any of those lunatic islamisists claiming to be British while demanding Sharia Law because of some higher power and providence (Replace British Imperialism with The Will of Allah).
Firstly: The vote was taken seperately, which undermines its democratic validity. When one vote is taken to include the whole of Ireland, I'll consider the matter 'settled.' Secondly, like you, providing there are no lies or libel, I'm entitled to my views and the aspiration of an all-Ireland state and that Britain should leave is not something confined to the IRA Army council.
The point I'm making is that Ireland do not issue British passports, therefore it's not Ireland that can decide on whether anyone in Ireland can get a British passport. The British government has already washed its hands of unionists born in the three Ulster counties within the Republic. Only those born before 1949 can claim British 'subject status', which unlike citizenship is not passed on to children.
As a result of the 1948 Act, Irish citizens ("citizens of Éire") lost British subject status automatically on 1 January 1949 if they did not acquire citizenship of the UK & Colonies or that of another Commonwealth country, notwithstanding that the Irish Free State did not cease to be one of His Majesty's dominions until 18 April 1949.
However, section 2 of the Act allowed certain Irish citizens who were British subjects before 1949 to apply at any time to the Secretary of State to remain British subjects. Applications had to be based on:
No provision was made for the retention of British nationality by Irish citizens born in the Republic of Ireland after 1948. British subject status, as distinct from citizenship of the UK & Colonies, was not transmissible by descent. SOURCE: Wikipedia
- previous Crown service under the United Kingdom government;
- possession of a British passport; or
- associations by way of descent, residence or otherwise with the United Kingdom or any Crown colony, protectorate, UK mandated territory or UK trust territory.
Therefore, the decision to NOT grant British citizenship to the descendants of Irish unionists within the 26 counties was taken by the British government. As with ethnic Britons in all its former colonies that allowed dual nationality - the 26C, Rhodesia, South Africa, Kenya etc. - the decision to deny them British citizenship was the British government, not the hosts. E.g. Had you been born on the other side of the border but with the same British ethnicity, you could not claim British citizenship today. This may not bother you, but it does bother some people.
You don't say!
If you have held both then as I've stated you can claim to be Irish and British. If you just hold British then I can't see how you can claim, as a nationailty, to be Irish just because you were born there. Frankly, I'm surprised given your hostile comments about the ROI etc. and the tricolour that you'd want to part with the 53 quid it takes to get one though. You don't even get the strip search anymore.
Thanks for the pitty, mate!
You try and put spin on everything you say, are you a journalist? why don't you find a forum to discuss your views on northern irish football. Every topic you discuss invariably involves you talking about it.
Tell me if neil lennon, captain of celtic, cannot get in the side, why can keith gillespie, an aging journeyman at sheffield united?
Now lets talk about sammy clingan. He can't help where he was born "republican west belfast". Sammy Clingan is a protestant. Now this doesn't bother me, but why try and put a slant on it, making it appear he is something that he isn't? I'll provide proof if you so wish.
I really don't understand why so many people on this board believe you can't be British/ a UK citizen and Irish as well. Do you believe therefore that no-one was truly Irish until post 1921? And are the the people in Scotland not truly Scottish? and the same for the Welsh.
Just because we don't subscribe to the 1916 blood sacrifice type of Irishness, or the Catholic Irish, lets toil in the fields all day "dream" espoused by De Valera etc - Doesn't make us any less Irish.
Anyway Edward George De Valera half spanish/cuban, half Irish, born in New York!I'm glad I was born and raised in Ireland, to Irish parents.
I tell you what, you can't watch the part Spanish Irish, lurking where you least expect them
Gillespie is a winger, Lennon a midfielder. Our midfield is just grand right now.
What exactly has Sammy Clinghan's religious beliefs (if he has any?) got to do with anything?
Is the thread about religion, or people's identity - particularly players expressing their identity by virtue of representing the FAI or IFA?
Would you have any proof of what Sammy identifies as, as opposed to what Church/Chapel he may or may not attend?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
I think you might be a little embarrassed on this one. I witnessed Sammy crossing himself when coming on for the second half against Iceland (surely not!!, was he not physically removed from the pitch by all those bigots at Windsor?) But maybe Protestants do that now, I haven't been to church in a number of years, bloody Church of Ireland, they're Catholics in all but name
As for Lennon, he's at least 4 years older than Gillespie, and probably wouldn't be playing international football now no matter what country he came from. Also I would agree that Lennon made better use of his (limited) footballing talents, but Gillespie is a much more naturally gifted player.
Last edited by Andyh; 28/10/2006 at 11:05 AM.
lopez,
"Firstly: The vote was taken seperately, which undermines its democratic validity. When one vote is taken to include the whole of Ireland, I'll consider the matter 'settled."
The GFA was endorsed by the overwhelming majority of those who voted on it on the island of Ireland. The GFA settled the constitutional question of Northern Ireland. One of the primary reasons why I voted for it.
"Secondly, like you, providing there are no lies or libel, I'm entitled to my views and the aspiration of an all-Ireland state and that Britain should leave is not something confined to the IRA Army council."
Of course you are - I have not once stated that you are not entitled to your views. Likewise, I am entitled to my views.
"The point I'm making is that Ireland do not issue British passports, therefore it's not Ireland that can decide on whether anyone in Ireland can get a British passport."
I do not believe that in the event of a "New Ireland" being created, that those in that "New Ireland" would be denied British citizenship/passport by the British Government.
In fact, i believe that would be a fundamental facet under an agreed, "New Ireland".
"The British government has already washed its hands of unionists born in the three Ulster counties within the Republic"
Shame on them. Don't be surprised to see that position changed.
"I used to work with a Ballymena United fan who had one."
And how did he/she identify?
"If you have held both then as I've stated you can claim to be Irish and British. If you just hold British then I can't see how you can claim, as a nationailty, to be Irish just because you were born there."
I have held both. My Irishness is my birthright. Unlike you, I was born in Ireland, of Irish parents. I am also British. How many times do you need me to repeat what I am?
"Frankly, I'm surprised given your hostile comments about the ROI etc. and the tricolour"
I don't think I was particularly "hostile" about the Tricolor - I stated that it is a flag that does not represent me in any shape or form, and never will.
Your hostility towards Irishmen (born and bred) like myself, The Union Flag, Britain, The United Kingdom etc is clearly on a different level.
"As for rugger, given that I have already stated that the Irish rugby team should play under two flags and two anthems, what do you think?"
Two seperate teams maybe?
Straight question.
Were Trevor Ringland and Tyrone Howe not fit to wear an Ireland shirt, because, in your myopic opinion, they are not Irish?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
and here's me thinking i'd stayed out of this for good
Neil Lennon is playing well in the Champions League mate, but he wouldnt get in the 'wee' team? wise up, as they say in your neck of the woods
as for Liz O'Donnell, she's incredibly false isnt she. what a load of codswallop. seems 'modern' ireland forbids any memories to exist. she truly is a c*nt.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
I think livewire might be a little red faced too - but let him/her produce the "proof"
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
you're a brit IN Ireland. simple as. you're wrong, but of course you're entitled to be wrongI have held both. My Irishness is my birthright. Unlike you, I was born in Ireland, of Irish parents. I am also British. How many times do you need me to repeat what I am?
when the brits came here they came to destroy all vestige of culture,language and dignity. how can you be the poacher and gamekeeper. its a ****ing joke - just cos you claim you are in your own head doesn't prove anything.
Here:
you say that the flag doesnt represent you in any way, when clearly the orange bit does! so once again, you've got an opinion out of touch with the facts, because you want to.
you just WANT to claim an Irish/British identity to maintain the british superiority over us.
as for the Polish/Irish debate, i dont think there has been a Polish invasion...
Was she not espousing the view that more "memories" should be allowed to infiltrate the myopic worldview of some, somewhat extreme, "nationalists".
How exactly is she "truly a c*nt"? Is that your considered response to anyone who offers a different viewpoint to mono cultural nationalist/republican thinking in Ireland?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Why do you find this one so hard to comprehend? The man will be 36 next year!! How many other players this age are playing for their country!!! Shearer was captain of Newcastle and was playing Champions league a couple of seasons ago, but didn't play for England.and here's me thinking i'd stayed out of this for good
Neil Lennon is playing well in the Champions League mate, but he wouldnt get in the 'wee' team? wise up, as they say in your neck of the woods
as for Liz O'Donnell, she's incredibly false isnt she. what a load of codswallop. seems 'modern' ireland forbids any memories to exist. she truly is a c*nt.
because you can't. it's only something Brits would claim! it's patronising and insulting to Irish people. it's more than just 'citizenship' we're talking about too, and almost exclusively a debate about northern individuals.
they spend all their ****ing time not wanting to be irish and then claim they are to illustrate how we're part of a ****ing union. 'irish' people are not - the northern state (gerrymandered) is and the brits within it are. NOT Irish people.
scotland and wales are not divided lands with the history of ireland and the WHOLE of both lands are within britain. Ireland is not.
you can be 'northern irish and British' if you want. But not IRISH and British.
and f**k off with you're typical anti-1916 claptrap about the 'blood sacrifice' quote. funny how the west brits always come out with the same one line from 1916
and I have yet to meet anybody who is a fan of De Valera's 'Ireland' - have you? or is it just another part of your attempt to paint 'irish' in a negative way?
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