Socialism in Ireland

**BohsPartisan** · 18/10/2006, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

Excellent Post Jebus
The SP are a joke party
in many ways like sinn fein they will do quite well in local elections as they are good at grass roots (mickey mouse) issues but no one in their right minds would let them run the country

So you're a mental health expert now are you? You have a real chip on your shoulder towards us. Its an awful pity the other thread was deleted because I answered most of this cr'p at the time and there were no comebacks on it so I presumed you'd nothing else to say on the issue. Why are you asking the same questions and making the same questions again? Have you short attention spans. Plus Jebus why use the SWP website as an example?
http://www.socialistparty.net is better all 'round.
One of my main gripes debating you guys on socialism is that you tend to ignore the main points against your arguements and bring up the same arguements over and over again. Then you give up and months later bring up the same arguements again and force me to repeat myself.
As for people "sniggering" at us? Who? More phanthom folk? We ran a local election candidate in Drogheda for the first time ever in 2004 having only established the branch in 2001 and came within 40 votes of a council seat. People I spoke to were delighted to have an alternative to the mainstream. The only people who "snigger" are arrogant right-wingers who have no real interest in listening to what we say and construct a mythical programme for us behind our backs. I don't care about these people but I find it necessary to explode these myths for the benefit of people who are interested in what we stand for. I was hoping to start a thread myself at the weekend on this subject so I could set the tone of the debate as usually I have to answer 6 different posts at once in these threads and am put on the defensive from the start. With this in mind I am going to ignore the more ludicrous points that have been made* for the time being and post my piece that I was promising at the weekend, then you guys can read what i have said for a change and actually answer my points. Most of the ludicrous points should be dealt with in my post as I am sick to the eye teeth of answering them over the years. The can is opened and the worms are well and truelly scattered.

*Highlighted text should not be quoted and taken as a direct representation of my post.

**SligoBrewer** · 18/10/2006, 3:40 PM

one word= cuba

success?

**Dodge** · 18/10/2006, 3:44 PM

Originally Posted by SligoBrewer

one word= cuba

success?

As successful as most non communist states in the carribean, yeah...

**BohsPartisan** · 18/10/2006, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by SligoBrewer

one word= cuba

success?

Be more specific. I have no idea what you are insinuating here.

**Poor Student** · 18/10/2006, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by SligoBrewer

one word= cuba

success?

It's not my idea of paradise, but Cuba boasts high literacy levels, a good health system and has managed to develop a self sustaining economy in light of the sanctions placed on them.

**SligoBrewer** · 18/10/2006, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by Poor Student

It's not my idea of paradise, but Cuba boasts high literacy levels, a good health system and has managed to develop a self sustaining economy in light of the sanctions placed on them.

yes, cuba is a brilliant success!
socialism if done properly, is better than any other system.

personally this country is getting to become more like a banana republic every week

**Block G Raptor** · 18/10/2006, 4:09 PM

I Agree socialism in its Ideal state is commendable but as we've seen in practically every socialist regime it only works if the people in power are genuine and live by the socialist Ideal. Judging on the general track record of politicians in this country I don't think theres much chance of it working here. Orwells animal farm comes to mind

**jebus** · 18/10/2006, 5:28 PM

BohsPartisan you say that all us non-socialists ever do is say the same arguement over and over again, then leave then come back to it, but I'll counter with this, all you ever do is gloss over points that have been put to you with idotic rants about how us right-wingers (I'm not by the way, but then again why would you bother asking, just keep on assuming, it's the socialist way of doing things) are out to get the 6th most popular (if they are lucky) party in Ireland by making up manifestos for you.

I chose the SWP.net site because I typed in 'Socialism Ireland' into Google and they gave that as their main website for Socialism in Ireland. As I've always trusted Google to ween out the rubbish I clicked on that assuming it was the main website for Socialism in Ireland, something which I still believe. But back to my points, if you'd care to read over them, about the Socialist Party, it's greater concern with the wider world than Ireland and it's policy of 'No Asylum Seekers Out', do you have any comment to make on that? Or are you just going to fling around more of your accusations and skim around the issues yet again, yet another trait of the socialist party it seems

**pete** · 18/10/2006, 5:46 PM

I don't think there are any real examples of socialist states & certainly communism was a massive failure.

Based on all the elections in Ireland we a centralist people shifting from left to right & back again. There is no real desire for proper left or right. If you compare the proper right (PDs) with proper left (SWP) its clear that while not much support for the PDs they have more support than the SWP.

I wouldn't say anyone treated as a joke but its clear the SWP is only treated as a sideshow.

Irish people will say they aint-US & support the Palestians & others but almost no one would let it affect their vote in even a local election as its well down in order or priorities.

**Dodge** · 18/10/2006, 6:31 PM

Originally Posted by SligoBrewer

personally this country is getting to become more like a banana republic every week

examples please

**Poor Student** · 18/10/2006, 8:08 PM

Originally Posted by pete

Based on all the elections in Ireland we a centralist people shifting from left to right & back again. There is no real desire for proper left or right. If you compare the proper right (PDs) with proper left (SWP) its clear that while not much support for the PDs they have more support than the SWP.

One of the major reasons that we're a centralist people as you put it is due to Labour declining to contest the 1918 and 1921 elections leading to Irish politics being totally polarised around the Treaty issues.

**BohsPartisan** · 18/10/2006, 9:19 PM

Originally Posted by pete

. There is no real desire for proper left or right. If you compare the proper right (PDs) with proper left (SWP) its clear that while not much support for the PDs they have more support than the SWP.

.

I disagree on many points there. 1. I disagree that there is no desire for a propper left. I find most people receptive to The Socialist Party and sick of the lack of choice in Irish politics. I also disagree that the SWP is the proper left.

**BohsPartisan** · 18/10/2006, 9:23 PM

Originally Posted by jebus

about the Socialist Party, it's greater concern with the wider world than Ireland a

This is nonsense. We campaign on local, national AND international issues. If you were ever at our national conference, which is usually a three day event you would find that two or three hours is taken up with international issues (we are part of an international organisation after all) and the rest with stuff concerning Ireland.

**pete** · 19/10/2006, 9:46 AM

Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

I find most people receptive to The Socialist Party and sick of the lack of choice in Irish politics.

Polls & Elections show that socialists in a minority in this country. Is Joe Higgins the only socialist TD?

**Dodge** · 19/10/2006, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by pete

Polls & Elections show that socialists in a minority in this country. Is Joe Higgins the only socialist TD?

SF and FF claim to be socialists from time to time

**pete** · 19/10/2006, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

SF and FF claim to be socialists from time to time

TBH i don't know what the irish socialist parties are. SF & the Greens claim but I don't believe they are but would be interesting to know the definition of...

**BohsPartisan** · 19/10/2006, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by pete

Polls & Elections show that socialists in a minority in this country. Is Joe Higgins the only socialist TD?

Yes but due to a lack of resources we only run a small amount of candidates. Our average return per candidate is better than most of the major parties. Clare Daly came within a hundred votes or so of winning a second seat for us the last time around and we're hoping she'll get in. She is widely tipped to win a seat in Dublin North at any rate.
The major parties have massive financial resourses that we simply can't compete with. Look at the PD's. They have no activist base yet they can spend massive amounts of money on elections. In the last local elections in Drogheda despite the fact that we are the most active party in the town, in terms of real activism, we could only run in one ward where the PD's were able to run in all three wards. Despite this our candidate polled more 1st prefs than the three PD candidates put together. We also polled more first prefs than the two FF candidates in our ward and were only over taken when the lesser FF candidate's preferences were redistributed. There were a lot of people very disapointed we didn't get the seat (I was delighted with how well we did and certainly wasn't expecting to come so close as it was ourt first time standing in the town).
Those same polls that tell you that x amount of people vote for FF and FG but are also dissatisfied with the choices they have. Most people in this country don't vote because they agree with government policy but because such and such has a constituency office down the road. Or else they just don't vote.

**Poor Student** · 19/10/2006, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by pete

TBH i don't know what the irish socialist parties are. SF & the Greens claim but I don't believe they are but would be interesting to know the definition of...

The Greens claim to be socialist?

**BohsPartisan** · 19/10/2006, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Poor Student

The Greens claim to be socialist?

I don't think they do. SF have kind of dropped the tag too AFAIK. Ogra SF still call themselves Socialist but the bit on the masthead of An Phoblacht "for a 32 county Socialist Republic" is gone and they have been cosying up to business leaders of late.

**bennocelt** · 19/10/2006, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by pete

We are a democratically run country & no one is stealing or fixing elections. If you disagree with the rule of law then vote for someone who will do that for you, otherwise accept the will of the majority.

what about the Nice elections then