Socialism in Ireland

[pete]

Seriously though any constituents of Tony Gregory or Joe Higgins on here?

Tony Gregory is my local TD. Just like the rest of them don't see or hear much from him.

[paul_oshea]

Yeah I think we know what you think Pete

not an awful lot...just read the posts!!!

What about all revolutions then pete, because those people that broke the law, like in ukraine/yugoslavia etc, if everyone at the time, said why aren't they obeying the law etc, none of these would have occured. wake up and open your eyes. These people are dead right, have you for a start even visited these areas? i think i know the answer to that, for a start the "thing" is going to be a bloody eyesore, nevermind the potential damage it could do, to both human life and the environment, it would be interesting if something like that did occur what your opinion would be then, "ah sure its only a few ignorant FF voters from the arse end of nowhere in maigh eo".....just because you work in Software development, doesnt mean you have to follow everything logically....I certainly don't.

[pete]

What about all revolutions then pete, because those people that broke the law, like in ukraine/yugoslavia etc, if everyone at the time, said why aren't they obeying the law etc, none of these would have occured. wake up and open your eyes.

Its getting tiring having ye compare Ireland with Nigeria, Ukraine & Yugoslavia. I think some people need to take a look at thew world without the Che Guevara t-shirt.

We are a democratically run country & no one is stealing or fixing elections. If you disagree with the rule of law then vote for someone who will do that for you, otherwise accept the will of the majority.

[BohsPartisan]

We are a democratically run country & no one is stealing or fixing elections. If you disagree with the rule of law then vote for someone who will do that for you, otherwise accept the will of the majority.

Its not a democratically run country. The major decisions that affect our lives are taken in the boardrooms of major corporations. The press is owned by these people, the State is bought by these people and the education system is set up to discourage dissent. You can vote every 5 years for Neo Liberal or Diet Neo liberal. Thats no democracy. Parties who don't play the game of the multinationals have to struggle by on limited funds and thus cannot get the exposure that other parties do and if they get anywhere near to getting too big for their boots they are demonised in the press. A lot of this is dramatically illustrated by Rossport.
The Government under the auspices of the corrupt minister Ray Burke hands a valuble state asset to the Shell corporation for a tiny fraction of its value, then changes the laws so that Shell have to give little or nothing back to the taxpayer. The Shell corporation decides to build a pipeline over land through a populated area, ignoring the industry standards. The courts side with them. The Gardaí are used as Shells private boot boys and the protesters are demonised by a lying private media owned by and large by a guy with a vested interest in Shell getting their way. Does this sound democratic to you?
Sounds like a Banana republic to me.

[pete]

Its still 1 person 1 vote. I am no fan of the current government but i accept the will of the majority. Without multinationals we'd be living in mud huts, 30% unemployment & apying 70% of our income to the state to pay for the 305 unemployed.

[BohsPartisan]

Its still 1 person 1 vote. I am no fan of the current government but i accept the will of the majority. Without multinationals we'd be living in mud huts, 30% unemployment & apying 70% of our income to the state to pay for the 305 unemployed.

This is your refrain anytime anyone questions the status quo. Quite frankly its ill informed drivel. You should go to this on Friday night:
Socialism 2006 Event

[pete]

You should go to this on Friday night:

Would I be able to avoid the Israel v Palestine drivel?

[BohsPartisan]

Thats on Saturday. The Joe Vs. McWilliams debate is Friday night and is drawing a lot of interest.

[Lim till i die]

Which is what seperates us from the rest. We won't even have a candidate over there. We do not just get involved in campaigns for electoral gain.

Why aren't the "Socialists" involved in more campaigns on working class estates?? I've never in my life had one of your members near my door.

Seem quite happy to leave the working classes to the Shinners but when some ranchers up in Mayo try to impose mob rule the Socialist Party are one of the first aboard the bandwagon

[BohsPartisan]

Why aren't the "Socialists" involved in more campaigns on working class estates?? I've never in my life had one of your members near my door...some ranchers up in Mayo try to impose mob rule the Socialist Party are one of the first aboard the bandwagon

We've had this conversation before on the Gama thread and I thought we'd come to a resolution on it. Ask the people of Swords and Dublin 15 who is the only party who they see campaigning on working class estates. Its us. As for Limerick, as I explained to you before the branch is relatively new, young and small and if you want to get us doing some work in your area you should join up.

On your other point, isn't democracy in its purest form "mob rule"?

[Lim till i die]

We've had this conversation before on the Gama thread and I thought we'd come to a resolution on it. Ask the people of Swords and Dublin 15 who is the only party who they see campaigning on working class estates. Its us. As for Limerick, as I explained to you before the branch is relatively new, young and small and if you want to get us doing some work in your area you should join up.

On your other point, isn't democracy in its purest form "mob rule"?

But the Shinners have at least been making a couple of loud noises in Limerick and they're by no means popular

It just seems (to a lot of people I know btw, it's not just me) that the Socialists don't want to get their hands really dirty with a lot of the stuff that goes on in working class areas. Now maybe this is a wrong perception but it's definitely a perception a lot of people I know have and which IMO ye should be trying your best to change with work on the ground in "dis-advantaged" areas rather than standing up for rich farmers as they attempt to subvert the state in their own little backward kingdom in Mayo

As for democracy being at essence "mob rule", I've never claimed to be a fan of democracy in its current form. As Winston Churchill said the greatest advert against democracy is the average voter

[rebs23]

Its not a democratically run country. .

Yes it is.
Your brand of politics would see the all private property and business revert to public ownership. No motivation to strive for anything and the lowest common denominator rules. The result of your politics would be for every private coroporation to flee the country and we would revert back to our bananna republic. Who would pay the bills?
It really is getting tiresome to see every debate on this forum brought back to the "socialist workers republic". Why not have a debate without the solution from your point of view being the "socialist workers republic".

We live in a capitalist democracy where people have the right to travel, where they have the freedom to trade with whoever they want and the ability to speak about whatever they want and it will remain that way as people have prospered under that system. People have never and will never prosper under a system where you stop the right to travel, trade and speak.

[BohsPartisan]

It just seems (to a lot of people I know btw, it's not just me) that the Socialists don't want to get their hands really dirty with a lot of the stuff that goes on in working class areas.

Socialist Party representatives are THE ONLY PARTY'S representatives who have gone to jail getting their hands really dirty representing the people who voted for them. Sinn Féin are great at making loud noises but when it comes to the areas I'm familiar with - Dublin, Louth, Meath - that is all they do.

[BohsPartisan]

Yes it is.
No motivation to strive for anything and the lowest common denominator rules.

Sounds like you are describing the current system where the LCD actually does rule.

The result of your politics would be for every private coroporation to flee the country and we would revert back to our bananna republic. Who would pay the bills?

No this would be the result of Labourite reformist Social democracy. Under Socialist Democracy the property of the corporations would be siezed so they couldn't take it anywhere.

It really is getting tiresome to see every debate on this forum brought back to the "socialist workers republic". Why not have a debate without the solution from your point of view being the "socialist workers republic".

You're the one who's bringing it back to this. I fully plan on opening up a thread on the merits of Socialism over Capitalism and have extensive notes from a public debate I took part in. I'll string something together at the weekend - don't say you didn't ask for it.

We live in a capitalist democracy where people have the right to travel, where they have the freedom to trade with whoever they want and the ability to speak about whatever they want and it will remain that way as people have prospered under that system.

As long as they are already wealthy.

People have never and will never prosper under a system where you stop the right to travel, trade and speak.

Who said anything about that? You're as bad as the right wing media making up stuff and attributing it to me. Cop on.



Now lets get back on topic here eh?

[rebs23]

Sounds like you are describing the current system where the LCD actually does rule.


No this would be the result of Labourite reformist Social democracy. Under Socialist Democracy the property of the corporations would be siezed so they couldn't take it anywhere.


You're the one who's bringing it back to this. I fully plan on opening up a thread on the merits of Socialism over Capitalism and have extensive notes from a public debate I took part in. I'll string something together at the weekend - don't say you didn't ask for it.


As long as they are already wealthy.

Who said anything about that? You're as bad as the right wing media making up stuff and attributing it to me. Cop on.



Now lets get back on topic here eh?

The current system is person one one vote. What would the system be in a socialist workers republic?

How would seizing the property of companies protect our current relative wealth? How would this seizing affect the jobless rate?

I actually am asking for it, so we can get straight to your possible vision of a utopian society.

Complete nonsense. Everyone has the right and the oppurtunity to free speech, freedom of movement and the freedom to trade.

So a socialist society would allow freedom of trade, speech and travel? I didn't attribute anything to you just basing that on every example of a socialist society that has ever existed!

As for copping on well I'll leave that judgement to everybody else reading your musings over the last number of weeks. From workers rights to the corrib gas project you have a view on everything.

Who went off topic first ?

Sometimes it's hard to know where to start when you are responding to someone so completely indoctrinated with an ideology and cannot accept that other views have a valid point.

I look forward to you starting a thread on how you see society functioning and how in a socialist system freedom of expression, freedom of travel and trading rights are adhered to.

[BohsPartisan]

Who went off topic first ?

.

You or maybe Pete. My post about the system was linked to the issue and was therefore on topic. All the points you make I've been answering ad nauseum on message boards for the last ten years or so. There was a thread to do with the GAMA controversy on this board where I answered them all but it seems to have been deleted. I've already said I'll start a thread on the issue at the weekend so will you stop dragging this one off topic. (I personally wouldn't mind but if we continue to go off topic either this thread will be binned or it will be split by the mods).

[pete]

(splitting from Corrib Gas Terminal thread)

[jebus]

This thread is gonna get messy

[jebus]

My 2 cents anyway, for what it's worth (I'm guessing a load of grief off of BohsPartisan) is that socialism in Ireland is seen as a joke, whether it is in essence or not is debatable, but as a political party when you have the majority of the public sniggering at you you're on to a loser.

Look up www.swp.ie, the webpage of the Socialist Party in Ireland and what do you see? One main topic discussing something thats reletive to Ireland, that being the Shell to Sea campaign. Outside of that you have two pieces dealing with British politics (well balanced debates I'm sure), a piece about America using Shannon Airport to refuel (old topical issue), two pieces about Israel/Palastine, another about Venezula/Bolivia, and some ridiculous statement about not sending any asylum seekers home.

I mean does anyone believe that the majority of the electorate care about Venezula/Bolivia? or about life in Britain after Blair? or even about Palastine? I mean really care, not just have a light interest in? I'd wager that most couldn't give two craps about America using Shannon as a stopover and all. Irish people want to hear more about Irish political standpoints about Irish topics, not about whether Chavez is doing a good job, or whether we should reheat the lost argument that is the Shannon stopover.

As for this no asylum seekers garbage, well I'll just say this. In Ireland we have members of the Hutu Power group that commited genocide in Rwanda 12years ago claiming asylum. People who are wanted back in Rwanda before the war crimes trial officially ends in mid 2009 but who are going through our courts, or just hiding out, hoping they won't have to go home to face justice for the horrors they inflicted. So what this 'No Asylum Seekers Should be Deported' nonsense says to me is that either the SWP are siding with scum like Hutu Power, or they haven't got a notion what they are talking about, I think I'll take the latter one of those two choices.

But again and again we see this with the SWP, all they come across as is a bunch of neo-liberal loudmouths who speak before they'll listen to the facts. Of course whenever someone disagrees with them, instead of trying to argue they'll try to discredit them, or just sum up their arguments into 'you don't know what you're talking about'. Until all this is fixed they'll always be considered a joke if ask me, and not realising this will only prolong their stay as Ireland's 'joke party', a position Fianna Fail should have taken up many years ago

[Block G Raptor]

Excellent Post Jebus
The SP are a joke party
in many ways like sinn fein they will do quite well in local elections as they are good at grass roots (mickey mouse) issues but no one in their right minds would let them run the country