How do you compare any set of players from different positions though? Their greatness or ability is surely measured by how they demonstrated an aptitude to perform in the role they were assigned in the era in which they played. You also have to gauge how crucial or significant their contribution to the team was, and you can't doubt the significance of Robbie's goals and general play to the Irish cause over the past decade and a half. As Serb says, we'd be nowhere without his contribution.Originally Posted by brine3
Very good player and I wish we had one of his ilk at rb about now but...Top 5? Let's see... Irish players who I rate better than Robbie Keane, in alphabetical order to avoid arguments
Liam Brady
Shay Brennan
Damien Duff
Tony Dunne
Steve Finnan (criminally underused in a green shirt)
John Giles
Shay Given
Ray Houghton
Charlie Hurley
Denis Irwin
Paul McGrath
Roy Keane
Kevin Moran
Ronnie Whelan
you're having a laugh.
54 goals should automatically put any Irish international into the top 5 of all time, if not higher. It is so far ahead of the competition (other strikers) its in a different league. It is such a huge contribution to Irish success since the 90's, it eclipses the conrtibutions of most of the players on brines list. To argue otherwise is foolish in my opinion. To be clear, i dont think we should take club form/achievements into account for these types of lists unless specified.
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.
I remember when Robbie first burst onto the scene Niall Quinn excitedly commented how Keane would easily pass his goal scoring record for Ireland which at the time was around 21 goals. Robbie now has easily passed that record and because of this he has to be accepted as our best striker of all time. In terms of assists and the ability to change a game, it would be hard to look past Quinn. As for Stapleton, having met him, all I can say is he is a grumpy and unfriendly individual who I don't respect.
Last edited by gastric; 14/03/2013 at 9:33 PM.
Do tell?
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Well you only disagree with 1 of the 14 I picked ahead of Robbie Keane so I'll take it we are in good agreement.
Steve Finnan was probably our best player in Japan/Korea. Says a lot about Mick's judgement that Finnan wasn't a starter going into the tournament...
And of course Finnan has bags of Champions League experience, including a winner's medal.
Should have had about 30 more caps than he got.
Well to get into the Top 5 Ireland players of all time you'd have to be ahead of at least Paul McGrath, John Giles, Liam Brady, Roy Keane and Denis Irwin. And then there's Shay Given, I'm sure he saved at least 54 certain goals in his time.
I'm consistent though, I once argued with an Iranian that Mehdi Mahdavikia was the greatest Iranian player of all time and not Ali Daei, in spite of his 109 goals.
I don't want to go into great detail, but suffice to say, John Byrne was an absolute gentleman and signed autographs and chatted away with a group of Irish schoolboys while Stapleton was what I mentioned above. While he was a class footballer, I find it hard to be objective about him since.
No it doesn't say much about Mick's judgement - if you simply look at Wikipedia, you see that, at the beginning of qualifying, Finnan had only a handful of Premier League appearances at a newly-promoted Fulham, whereas his competition for the right-back position, Stephen Carr and Gary Kelly, both had years of experience in top-half Premier League clubs, which would have naturally put them ahead of him in the pecking order at that time and, as both helped guide Ireland through the successful campaign, it would also have been natural for Mick to have chosen them as the main two for the right-back position in the squad, had Carr not been injured. That Finnan really emerged as Mr Dependable during the tournament when needed was great, but the fact that Mick preferred Carr and Kelly (both fine full-backs) over him before the Finals was no damning error of judgement on his part, just a sign that we were blessed with depth in that position.
"He won the Champions' League" as a token of praise died when Djimi Traore won it.
Also, I'd be fairly sure there's at least three players on your list you've never seen play.
Fair enough.
Just like me and that French player. I can't reconcile any praise for him with what he done that cold November night in Paris.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Maybe on its own, winning a CL medal as a token of praise is suspect but just because Traore won one, doesn't diminish its place in Finnan's career.
Handful of apps for a newly promoted team? Finnan was named in the 2001-2002 PFA Team of the Year.No it doesn't say much about Mick's judgement - if you simply look at Wikipedia, you see that, at the beginning of qualifying, Finnan had only a handful of Premier League appearances at a newly-promoted Fulham, whereas his competition for the right-back position, Stephen Carr and Gary Kelly, both had years of experience in top-half Premier League clubs, which would have naturally put them ahead of him in the pecking order at that time and, as both helped guide Ireland through the successful campaign, it would also have been natural for Mick to have chosen them as the main two for the right-back position in the squad, had Carr not been injured.
Carr had been injured nearly all season.
Kelly started at right-back, fair enough. But even so, the writing was on the wall in qualification already. Against Holland Kelly was run absolutely ragged and got himself sent off. Finnan came on and got the assist for the winning goal.
But what is most grating is that Mick picked an unfit Jason McAteer at right-half against Cameroon and it was a total disaster. I think it says a lot about Mick's stubborn loyalty that he'd rather pick an unfit McAteer (who had been dropped at Blackburn) over a fit Finnan, who had just been named as the best right back in the Premier League and was in the form of his life. Thankfully he made the change against Cameroon, but only after we had gone 1-0 down. Lucky for Mick it worked out in the group.
Last edited by brine3; 15/03/2013 at 8:08 AM.
I didn't realise when people say Robbie Keane is in the "Top 5 Irish players of all time" that they are only referring to players they have seen themselves. Obviously that would explain a thing or two...
Shay Brennan and Tony Dunne have nearly 900 appearances for Man Utd between them, two league titles and a European Cup. In the modern era these guys would have 100 caps each for Ireland, but in those days, as we know, Irish players were rarely released by their clubs and had to play matches in Dublin only a couple of hours after getting off the boat from Liverpool.
I didn't say it did. Finnan absolutely had a very good career, and was a very good player for us. But brine3's comments weren't much more than "He has a winner's medal" (He has since expanded in fairness)
Would they? I'm not so sure. Let's transport them from their era to the modern day without the benefits of modern coaching (because that's the comparison you're making). It's a different game now. Fitness and tactics have improved hugely since the 60s. Would they even get in the squad now? What level would they be playing at - lower Premiership? Second flight?
Legends in their own time, surely. I'm not sure if that translates to top ten Irish players ever.
I don't like taking players from one era and putting them in an other. But there's no discernible reason why any player who excelled in any particular era wouldn't have excelled in another.
At the end of the day, they are the best of the best, generally at any given time.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
I don't see that as the comparison he's making. Presumably they were as fit as they could be / needed to be for the game at that time. Why wouldn't they be as fit as they could be / needed to be for the game at this time?
I don't doubt there's no inherent reason they wouldn't have improved with modern training (I'm assuming modern training makes a big difference, and I think that's a fair assumption). But does it stand to reason that they were better than Keane on the basis of the player they could have been? I don't think that's necessarily fair.
I don't think it stands to reason to regard a player from another generation as a top 10 legend based on stats and other peoples' opinion, it doesn't have much value.
In 2055, no doubt Brine5 will be listing Robbie Keane as a top 5 Irish legend based on his stats and positive opinions about his worth to the Irish team
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