QuoteThe singularity of the group I suppose.Originally Posted by Yard of Pace
They do the same with bands too. Anyone know why? It's really really weird.
The singularity of the group I suppose.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Colorado Avalanche, Montreal Impact, LA Galaxy, I don't see what the problem is.
That's not what he was getting at.
Eg. he's annoyed at phrases like "Chelsea is European Champion"
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
I thought I was getting busted for a misplaced (singular) apostrophe after I wrote "Galaxy's stumbling passage"
But in this case the plural are one unit (I think).
It's confusing when there is a sidetracked strand to a thread and whose existence is only understood by a few, who communicate on a need to know basis, in obscure references
Like most other things when it comes to language, the American way makes more sense. Chelsea is singular, we're just not used to hearing it that way and it sounds wrong.
I always found the American terms and spelling much more descriptive and logical. Examples being sidewalk and elevator to our footpath and lift. Also their spelling of words such as color and center, compared to colour and centre, seem more logical as well. I'm not so convinced about the way they run off their dates though, I think our basic day-month-year is more logical than their month-day-year, but their's still sounds better because they don't have to say 'of'.
Or at least our close friends
I had initially referenced you and that tangent in my post but I figured it was best to leave those particular dogs lie.It's confusing when there is a sidetracked strand to a thread and whose existence is only understood by a few, who communicate on a need to know basis, in obscure references
In a word... NO!
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
As always, the American way makes no historical sense. Before the days of big money-making leagues, teams were groups of people. If you're talking about the opposing group of 11 players, you're obviously going to use the plural - they. The opposite of "they" is "we", which even Americans use to describe their team. "It" can't feature on that logic. Hence why clubs are described in the plural.
I'm baffled as to how you reckon footpath and lift make more sense than sidewalk and elevator; they say the exact same thing. Color and center are leftovers from Noah Webster's aborted attempt to spell everything they way it's pronounced; now you have a mishmash of Americanisms and Englishisms - so a route is a rowt unless it's a national route, in which case it's a root (like 66).
Last edited by pineapple stu; 23/11/2012 at 4:12 PM.
Incredibly, I got a reply to a work email with those exact words less than an hour ago. I'm either barking up the wrong tree or it's 'National Terse Day'.
I know what you're saying about teams being groups of people obviously, but they combine to form something singular. I can see the sense in it without being overly passionate about it.
I presume you mean 'less' sense. I think sidewalk is more descriptive than footpath. It's a walkway at the side of something, a footpath could be anywhere. I think elevator also tells more of a story than lift, as in your being gradually elevated as opposed to just lifted off the ground.
Yeah, I'll leave that side of things to you. I only meant their way makes more sense in the same way this Noah chap obviously did. I'm sure he was p!ssing all over generations of language evolution (as opposed to just making things more straight forward).
The side of something could also be anywhere though. Lift and elevate are synonyms; any extra meaning is being introduced by you.
I think the problem with Americans (and Aussies) using the singular to describe teams is that it hints at a broader lack of understanding of the game; certainly, a lot (not all) of American commentary on football (saccer) is utter uneducated tripe (and in return, in fairness, England has Sky Sports). "Chelsea is" is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to not seeing the game as we do.
Did you ever notice that in every painting of Adam & Eve, they have belly buttons. Think about that...take as long as you want.
Yeah sidewalk could be anywhere, but it will always be at the side. I'm not introducing any extra meaning. The fact that they are synonyms only means that they mean basically the same thing, not necessarily the exact same thing. In this case, I think that elevator is more descriptive than lift. Lift means to move something up, elevate can mean to raise something up. It's a subtle enough difference I suppose but I think being raised up is more appropriate in this case.
I'm not so sure. Is it only sports teams that they talk about using the singular. For example, what about political parties? Would you take any notice if they said "The Democratic Party is introducing new tax measures"? I don't know if they would say it this way or not but, if they do, does it mean they don't really have an understanding of politics?
Last edited by DeLorean; 23/11/2012 at 5:05 PM.
Or worse, "Chelsea is champions of Europe". Pretty sure I've heard something like that before.
Some further reading on the matter:
Formal and notional agreement
In BrE, collective nouns can take either singular (formal agreement) or plural (notional agreement) verb forms, according to whether the emphasis is on the body as a whole or on the individual members respectively; compare a committee was appointed with the committee were unable to agree. The term the Government always takes a plural verb in British civil service convention, perhaps to emphasize the principle of cabinet collective responsibility. Compare also the following lines of Elvis Costello's song "Oliver's Army": Oliver's Army are on their way / Oliver's Army is here to stay. Some of these nouns, for example staff, actually combine with plural verbs most of the time.
In AmE, collective nouns are almost always singular in construction: the committee was unable to agree. However, when a speaker wishes to emphasize that the individuals are acting separately, a plural pronoun may be employed with a singular or plural verb: the team takes their seats or the team take their seats, rather than the team takes its seats. However, such a sentence would most likely be recast as the team members take their seats. Despite exceptions such as usage in The New York Times, the names of sports teams are usually treated as plurals even if the form of the name is singular.
The difference occurs for all nouns of multitude, both general terms such as team and company and proper nouns (for example where a place name is used to refer to a sports team). For instance,
BrE: The Clash are a well-known band; AmE: The Clash is a well-known band.
BrE: Spain are the champions; AmE: Spain is the champion.
Proper nouns that are plural in form take a plural verb in both AmE and BrE; for example, The Beatles are a well-known band; The Saints are the champions, with one major exception: largely for historical reasons, in American English, the United States is is almost universal. This is due to the growth in federal control over state governments following the American Civil War (cf. the inclusion of the term "indivisible" in the Pledge of Allegiance to the United States flag); before this, the construction "the United States are" was more common.
You are reading way too much into this.
You hear it a lot in music writing. "Coldplay has released their new single..." It's hypercorrectness to the point where it's actually wrong.
Verb morphology in football parlance, common usage of 'was sat' instead of 'was sitting'.
Robbie was sitting on the bench until the 80th minute or Robbie sat on the bench.....
Brit English -> 'Robbie was sat on the bench' or 'Woobie wuzz sat on the bench'.
Last edited by geysir; 26/11/2012 at 9:31 AM.
It could also be a rare usage of 'sit' as a transitive verb, in the same way as we might say, 'he sat his grandson on his lap and told him a story.' In this case, Robbie was sat on the bench by the manager, as opposed to being played by the manager.
God I love grammar.
I think it's actually grammatically correct to use either the singular or plural pronoun when referring to a group, but that doesn't change the fact that it's clearly immoral to say "Ireland is getting a foothold in the game". If nothing else, the plural gives a handy distinction between Ireland the country, and Ireland the baldie shaper.
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