Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
Have they got more value than goals not from open play? Why do you persist with this bizarre anti-Keane fallacy?
Sure Robbie is getting on as is natural for us all. Time waits for no man and all that but seriously your assertion that we should drop Robbie is purely speculative and frankly laughable without any concrete proof to the contrary.
And as regards your thinking that Robbie is not a team player and would retire on losing his starting place is bordering on insanity. Where have you pulled that ASSumption from?
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I would wager that the anti-Keane brigade, on Robbie's retirement whenever it may come, will consider him a quitter and a failure for not continuing.
The simple truth is until our other forwards start to actually score to the same extent and to a similar consistency then there should be room for Robbie in all cases.
There's a certain merit to you say changing his role, but you can state that without resorting to these petty and quite frankly ridiculous statistics that you are coming up with.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
There you have it. It's Robbie's fault we didn't get to Euro 2004 or 2008 or the 2006 and 2010 World Cups.
They are not my petty and ridiculous statistics!
I like Robbie Keane but he is 34 years old this summer and his performances have been diminishing noticeably for several years. A hat-trick against Faroe Islands and brace in a friendly against Georgia doesn't paper over those cracks.
It's irrelevant how much or how little our forwards score. Robbie is 34 and can not play in a 433/451 formation. The needs of the team outweigh the needs of Robbie. Wes Hoolahan, Andy Reid and potentially Stephen Ireland our more important to our 2016 Qualification chances. If we are going to play with 5 in midfield - like the previous several campaigns have proven we have to - then Shane Long should be lone striker.
Robbie Keane - if he is a team player - still has an important role to play. He is a far more luxurious option off the bench then the dross we have been accustomed to over the years; Keogh, Cox, Sammon, Green....
I would even start him against the bottom seeded teams because his record against them (especially under Trapattoni is superb).
I understand that my assertion that Keane heavily implied he would retire upon being dropped is causing consternation but he did imply such a thing approximately three years ago and as soon as I am able to supply a link, I will.
I can not fathom how a 33 year old playing in the MLS and who has not performed consistently at club level or against direct rivals at International level in several years could possibly think he should be guaranteed a place in the team.
That's twisting my words now in fairness.
I just think that if Robbie Keane's importance to the Irish National Team is being held up on a pedestal to Miroslav Klose, then his International goalscoring record should be more closely analysed.
Since the World Cup 2002, he hasn't score many important goals in important games - the games in which Qualification are ultimately achieved. He was a pivotal figure in helping us to qualify for Euro 2012, primarily because of his goals against lower seeded teams and when we actually got to the tournament, he was very poor. Of course simply getting to an International competition is an achievement for some people.
The crux of my argument is that Keane does not score enough goals against no.1, no.2 or even no.3 standard teams. That isn't to denigrate his overall goalscoring achievements. I have already said they will never be beaten by an Irish player.
In another thread, I bemoaned our inability to beat big International teams in meaningful games, something that Northern Ireland and Scotland are regularly able to do. Perhaps this links in to what I am saying about Keane?
You're right they are barely stats.
You are heading dangerously towards the Paul O'Shea zone of "selective data".I like Robbie Keane but he is 34 years old this summer and his performances have been diminishing noticeably for several years. A hat-trick against Faroe Islands and brace in a friendly against Georgia doesn't paper over those cracks.
You have to be kidding?It's irrelevant how much or how little our forwards score.
Why can't he?Robbie is 34 and can not play in a 433/451 formation.
On several occasions due to the toothlessness of our creative outlets in the last campaign Robbie found himself actually coming back to receive the ball. And was pretty effective in that "role".
If the new management team is going to start playing 433 or 451 then the logical way to try it out is in friendlies with Robbie-in-tow.
If it doesn't work then you change it up.
I would wager it is unlikely that Robbie will play in every game in the next campaign but who knows what ill happen.
We don't need to play 5 in midfield but we need at least a top-6.The needs of the team outweigh the needs of Robbie. Wes Hoolahan, Andy Reid and potentially Stephen Ireland our more important to our 2016 Qualification chances. If we are going to play with 5 in midfield - like the previous several campaigns have proven we have to - then Shane Long should be lone striker.
Given the opportunities that Long wasted in the last campaign I would be fearful of him as our lone striker. If we play a lone striker we have to play Robbie given all evidence at our disposal.
What is this "team player" bull you keep spouting?Robbie Keane - if he is a team player - still has an important role to play. He is a far more luxurious option off the bench then the dross we have been accustomed to over the years; Keogh, Cox, Sammon, Green....
Of course he has an important role to play. He's been the most important player in our history with out compare.
Calling those players dross is incredibly glib and unfair and shows how petty you can be for no valid reason:
Keogh: Was never gonna set the world on fire especially how he was utilised.
Cox: Gave 100% everytime and was unfortunately used out of position too often towards he creaky end of Trap's reign. Can never fault his application.
Sammon: Totally out of his depth. But he was called up and he played. You would have done the same. It's not his fault that he was in the squad.
Green: Any criticism of Green's apparent awfulness I find is based on a biased opinion seemingly created by the liked of Dunphy and barstoolers.
Green completely neutralised Ibra against Sweden and got practically no credit.
He has been a credit to the shirt. When when he gets a well-deserved MOTM he's roundly slagged as if it's some joke. Keep ytour ire for the likes of Whelan whose shortcomings have been far more costly to us.
I would start him in every game he is fit and is in better form than our other options.I would even start him against the bottom seeded teams because his record against them (especially under Trapattoni is superb).
I find it odd that you can make an assertion with no evidence but I am sure, that as an active user of this forum over the last 5 years that I would certainly have read that. And others would have commented on it here.I understand that my assertion that Keane heavily implied he would retire upon being dropped is causing consternation but he did imply such a thing approximately three years ago and as soon as I am able to supply a link, I will.
Can anyone shed light on this? I genuinely have no recollection of it.
I cannot fathom how an inconsistent 26 year old playing for average PL teams keeps being touted as the saviour...I can not fathom how a 33 year old playing in the MLS and who has not performed consistently at club level or against direct rivals at International level in several years could possibly think he should be guaranteed a place in the team.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
1. I provided a link to a list of his International goals. Take away the friendlies and he has barely any goals against a high standard of International team.
2. I said Keane's goals against teams like Faroe Islands and Georgia are still important but the catch 22 is that he is playing at too poor a standard to replicate those performances against half-decent teams. If we are relying on one 34 year old MLS player to bail us out with all our goals then we are in trouble. I have faith in our team scoring more goals all over the pitch once dead end players like Whelan and Green are dropped and players like Brady, McClean, Ireland, Reid, Hoolahan, Pilkington and Long are properly utilised.
3. No I am not kidding! It doesn't matter how much or how little Long, Walters and Doyle score against the big teams because present day Keane is not going to score any more than them. Statistically, he is more likely to score against the bottom seed teams hence why I would be more open to selecting Keane for these matches. The defenders he plays against are of a similar standard to those of the MLS and whatever age he is, Keane will not lose the ability to outwit defenders who aren't as clever as he is.
4. Long is more apt to play as a lone forward. Keane dropping back into midfield just makes him even less of a goal threat and more ineffective than he already is. His link up play is not on a par with Long or Doyle imo.
5. Long is still more likely to score against the top seeded teams as his domestic performances against teams like Chelsea and Liverpool prove. Keane is more likely to score against bottom seeded teams but I have never disputed that. We are going to have to look past Keane at some point and if we can't beat teams like Macedonia and Andorra because he isn't playing then I despair.
6. I said Sammon, Keogh, Green and Cox were dross options and I stand by it. Of course I wouldn't begrudge them a call up though. In their shoes, I would gladly accept a call up. The constant selections of players like Walters and Cox in particular and pushing Green and marginalising more creative players like Reid and Hoolahan epitomised where the Trapattoni era went so badly wrong. It went okay for a year or two but eventually you become so predictable you hit a dead end and the constant playing for one point becomes an albatross around your neck. I mean come on, a win and a loss is worth more than two draws.
7. Okay that's your opinion. I think the League he is playing in is poor and Long looks like a PL player every week.
8. People can read what he said however they want. I will look for the exact quotes.
9. I didn't say Long is the saviour. I just think it is more prudent to start a player who is in his peak and regularly troubles the best defences in the best League in the world than it is to start a 34 year old playing in a Mickey Mouse League who doesn't play as well against the best defenders and whom is no more likely to score against them. Which is the crux of the argument.
TOWK - what percentage of Ireland goals against "bigger teams" were scored by Keane?
Keane has NEVER let Ireland down in terms of commitment or as a team player. He has showed up everytime he's been asked and always put in 110%.
I think Long is the future but Keane is still the best goal scorer we have. Your point #5 above is straight out of analysis for dummies.
As well as being far and away Ireland's greatest ever striker, he is also in the top ten (or thereabouts) strikers in the history of the premiership. Yeah, a decent career alright...
Fast forward 30 years and our kids and grand kids will have only one opinion of Keane - world class striker, the best we ever had and 100% legend.
One question for you - where in ireland are you from and what teams do you support?
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.
For shiz and giggles I analysed Keane's goals post WC2002:
Goals since WC2002: 4921-Aug-02 *Finland 3–0 Friendly 1
07-Jun-03 *Albania 2–1 EURO 2004 Q 1
11-Jun-03 *Georgia 2–0 EURO 2004 Q 1
18-Nov-03 *Canada 3–0 Friendly 2
31-Mar-04 *Czech Rep 2–1 Friendly 1
05-Jun-04 *Nether 1–0 Friendly 1
04-Sep-04 *Cyprus 3–0 WC2006 Q 1
13-Oct-04 *Faroes 2–0 WC2006 Q 2
16-Nov-04 *Croatia 1–0 Friendly 1
04-Jun-05 *Israel 2–2 WC2006 Q 1
01-Mar-06 *Sweden 3–0 Friendly 1
15-Nov-06 *San Marino 5–0 EURO 2008 Q 3
22-Aug-07 *Denmark 4–0 Friendly 2
11-Nov-07 *Wales 2–2 EURO 2008 Q 1
29-May-08 *Colombia 1–0 Friendly 1
20-Aug-08 *Norway 1–1 Friendly 1
15-Oct-08 *Cyprus 1–0 WC2010 Q 1
11-Feb-09 *Georgia 2–1 WC2010 Q 2
01-Apr-09 *Italy 1–1 WC2010 Q 1
29-May-09 *Nigeria 1–1 Friendly 1
05-Sep-09 *Cyprus 2–1 WC2010 Q 1
18-Nov-09 *France 1–1 WC2010 Q 1
28-May-10 *Algeria 3–0 Friendly 2
07-Sep-10 *Andorra 3–1 EURO 2012 Q 1
08-Oct-10 *Russia 2–3 EURO 2012 Q 1
26-Mar-11 *Macedonia 2–1 EURO 2012 Q 1
24-May-11 *Nor Ireland 5–0 Carling Nations 2
29-May-11 *Scotland 1–0 Carling Nations 1
04-Jun-11 *Macedonia 2–0 EURO 2012 Q 2
11-Nov-11 *Estonia 4–0 EURO 2012 Q 2
09-Sep-12 *Kazakh 2–1 WC2014 Q 1
02-Jun-13 *Georgia 4–0 Friendly 2
07-Jun-13 *Faroes 3–0 WC2014 Q 3
06-Sep-13 *Sweden 1–2 WC2014 Q 1
15-Oct-13 *Kazakh 3–1 WC2014 Q 1
15-Nov-13 *Latvia 3–0 Friendly 1
Goals in competitive games: 26
Important goals since 2002: 7
Goals that changed result (all games): 25
Goals that changed result (comp games): 18
Important goals were scored based on what you have consistently stated as our group rivals.
I'm currently working on the tables of where Ireland would be if Robbie's goals were discounted.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
He's 11th all-time in the EPL.
And you are right on every count.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
If scoring goals against lesser teams is so easy how come nobody else can do it? Even when Long was picked ahead of Keane (Georgia) he couldn't hit a barn door. I think Robbie is nearing the end of his shelf life but for goals he has no competition.
I think Keane could still be playing at Long's standard of club. His cameo at Villa last season showed he still has quality. He's only a year older than Ibrahimovic and is in great shape. I think we can squeeze another campaign out of him, certainly the first half of one. Keane has earned the right to a well paid curtain call at the MLS, with a lifestyle to go with it. LA or Hull. Hmmm...
The reason Robbie doesn't score vital goals against big teams has nothing whatsoever to do with him being in the MLS. It's because we only play a big team once a year and we haven't been very good for a long time.
Long is a lot of good things but instinctive, reliable and natural goal scorer he ain't. Some of his recent misses for Ireland have been poor, as was his inability to pick out Keane for a tap in at home to Sweden. He also has a petulant streak that he showed at home to Sweden, making dumb late tackles, and arguably also cost us the points at home to Austria. Trap took him off because he had lost his cool when already on a yellow. If he had kept his cool Sammon might have come off instead. He ballooned a great chance over the bar in Stockholm.
I'm not trying to rubbish Long, just the silly notion that he's most likely to score against big teams.
Now, if the debate is whether Keane should make room for a Reid or Hoolahan type of advanced playmaker, with a player like Long ahead, then I think there's merit in that line of thought.
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 19/01/2014 at 3:43 PM.
There is merit in such a discussion but not in the context of Keane being rubbish which is what TOWK is peddling.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Where have I said Keane is "rubbish"?
I said his International career does not compare to Klose's which is an undisputed fact.
He had a "respectable" career in the Premier League. How does respectable get misinterpreted as "rubbish"?
I credited him for his knack of scoring goals against teams ranked below 50 in the International rankings and admitted that our other forward options don't possess said knack.
I said that continuing with a 4-4-2 formation is regressive and to accommodate Hoolahan, Reid or Ireland, I cannot see how you would fit Keane into that formation.
And lastly, I don't think Keane's performances at International level have vindicated making him an automatic selection in the games against the top ranked teams.
The guy spends 75% of matches just moaning at teammates and badgering the referee.
The fact is that he has a maximum of one campaign left as a regular starter, as do Dunne and possibly O'Shea. Long, Stokes and whomever may not score as many goals (against the lower ranked teams) but we are going to have to start giving them a chance.
"Long is a lot of good things but instinctive, reliable and natural goal scorer he ain't. Some of his recent misses for Ireland have been poor, as was his inability to pick out Keane for a tap in at home to Sweden. He also has a petulant streak that he showed at home to Sweden, making dumb late tackles, and arguably also cost us the points at home to Austria. Trap took him off because he had lost his cool when already on a yellow. If he had kept his cool Sammon might have come off instead. He ballooned a great chance over the bar in Stockholm."
I agree with the majority of what you say but you can not blame our capitulation against Austria on Long. It was tactical suicide taking the only forward with any stamina off, leaving Sammon and Walters on and putting Paul Green on the wing. There was no tactical nous whatsoever about anything Trapattoni did in that game. Leaving Sammon on had the same effect of Long being sent off. You had 10 players not going past the half-way line and then you had Sammon totally knackering himself by running all over the Austrian side of the pitch with no teammates anywhere remotely near him.
I dispute it. Klose had a far better team around him than Keane did.
Trap did take Long off because he lost his rag though. I'd have left him on and told him to calm down myself, but he was a walking red card at one stage.
No, no, that's exactly what you said.
32 this summer and 32 this summer.
Well maybe we would have. He didn't score enough goals against top seeds. Qualification for us isn't (it shouldn't) be measured on how many goals you get against Liechtenstein. It's measured on how many goals you get against teams like Switzerland, France, Czech Republic and Germany but someone seems to get stage fright in those matches.
It was another Keane who dragged us to the World Cup in 2002 so when all is said and done, Robbie Keane contributed to helping us qualify for Euro 2012 and we all know how that turned out....
Again. Sorry if I implied that not qualifying for all those tournaments was all Robbie's fault. It wasn't. But he is a striker and he is being compared to Miroslav Klose so it's only fair to draw comparisons.
We can still squeeze one more campaign out of them, as we can Keane. I never said I wouldn't have Keane in squads, just not as a guaranteed starter.
It's also important to remember that Reid is on fire in the Championship and Hoolahan plays well whenever he gets a game but he will have to wait until his move to Aston Villa goes through to get his game because Chris Hughton is Mr. Negativity.
Nothing implied, you straight out said it
But anyway, lets say he goes as a squad player for another couple of campaigns, is there any chance he has another 17 Irish goals in him ? A couple of hat tricks vs some worthless minnows and he might have half a chance. It would put him level some guy who goes by the name of Pele.
Last edited by CraftyToePoke; 19/01/2014 at 8:54 PM.
Depressing article really about our lack of strikers coming through, but it does reiterate the importance of Robbie to us, which is relevant considering some recent rash comments about our leading goalscorer ever.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-29931089.html
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