QuoteOriginally Posted by Noelys Guitar
They already have Ba, Keane, Cole, Piquionne, Obinna, Sears. I can't see Long going to West Ham during this window.
Who says Doyle isn't the one to get dropped? He obviously contributes in his own way and I like him but if Long and Keane formed a strong partnership should Long make that move, the logical choice would be to continue that at international level...
They already have Ba, Keane, Cole, Piquionne, Obinna, Sears. I can't see Long going to West Ham during this window.
"We lost because we didn't win"- Ronaldo
Leaving aside the fact that many people on here love to hate Celtic, is there any reason why Stokes isn't regarded as our most credible option up front for the coming years?
I know the obvious response is that he's only scoring goals in the SPL, but he's scored a lot of them (32 in 58 games in the last couple of years), and he's still only 22. Also, let's face it, all Robbie has done over the same period is score a few goals in the SPL.
Neither Doyle nor Long have particularly good goal scoring records at their current clubs (both average just over 1 in every 5 games). Doyle had a much better record at Reading, but that's going back a few years now, and about half his time there was in the Championship. He's also heading towards his late 20s, so hard to see him getting much better than he is now. Long, similarly, has only had a couple of seasons outside the Championship, and didn't exactly set the Premiership alight IIRC.
I genuinely struggle to see why Long is ahead of Stokes in the pecking order at this stage.
Robbie's scored goals for fun at the highest level since he was 17. Stokes has had more false dawns than arctic winter and he's just 22. Comparison doesn't carry.
Doyle's proved himself at the top flight over several seasons and has single-handedly carrying the attack of one of the Premiership's weakest teams. His contribution for Ireland speaks for itself. When Stokes beings to show even a tenth of the ability on the international stage, maybe the comparison can begin but until then...
As for Long, a far more relevant statistic is that he's scored exactly the same amount of league goals as Stokes in a side far less dominant than Celtic. Another important statistic - he's scored five international goals. And he totally looked the part in last year's qualifiers. Long's clearly found a new level in quality and consistency and is getting just reward.
Meanwhile Stokes has played for seven clubs in six seasons, and only ever managed to be taking seriously in the SPL. And even up until a month ago he wasn't a regular in the Celtic side. Everyone knows the guy's potential, and he's got time on his side, but Stokes has far more to prove than Long at this point.
I genuinely struggle to see why.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
Not trying to be rude, but the English Championship is a much higher level than the SPL in my opinion. Plus, Stokes plays on one of the two teams that are a million miles ahead of the other ten.
And in that league, Stokes is the 3rd highset scoring irishman (behind Stokes and Adam Rooney)
Talented he may be, but until he proves himself at a higher level (after more than one falure) he's going to be behind the likes of Long
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The old Stokes are thick on the ground with you there Dodge ...
I'm not trying to compare Stokes to Keane. Just pointing out that if you dismiss SPL goals as meaningless, then Robbie has done absolutely nothing in the last 2 years.
Pretty debatable, all of that. He's only got into double figures once in a top flight season (5 years ago - as I said in my previous post, his form a few years ago was a lot more impressive than it is now). He's scored just 2 league goals this season. In the last 3 years he's scored 4 international goals, against Georgia, Cyprus, Paraguay and Andorra. AFAIK, he's never scored against one of the top two seeds in our group at international level. He's a decent player, but TBH, I think slightly out of his depth at the top level.
Do you mean this season? If so, at least be honest enough to point out that Long has played a lot more games. Just to be clear, Long has scored 34 league goals in his whole Reading career, from 157 games in 6 seasons. That's similar to what Stokes has scored in the past season and a half from just 58 games. And most of those were scored for Hibs, who I would say have similar standing in the SPL as Reading do in the Championship, so the dominant side argument doesn't wash either.
Fair enough, but I suspect Stokes could score a few too if he was given the game time that Long has got. I'm not saying Long shouldn't be in the squad or anything.
He was taken pretty seriously at Arsenal, just didn't make the grade. They gave him his first team debut at age 17, they then sent him on loan for a season (instead of just releasing him) and sold him for 2million while he was still a teenager. Your comment about Celtic is pretty strange. He's played in 18 out of Celtic's 23 league games this year, and he only joined them in September.
Long has done ok for Ireland, not disputing that, and he will continue to have a part to play. My original point was who we should be looking for as the striker of the future. I can't see Long being the new Robbie Keane. Stokes could be if he can keep his head together. I stress could be BTW, especially as it's by no means a certainty that he'll keep his head together.
I'm not dismissing SPL goals in general, it's just it's the only league Stokes has scored regularly. Robbie's got nothing to prove.
Lionel Messi's only managed 15 in 53 appearances for Argentina. Out of his depth? I'm not comparing Messi to Doyle, just pointing out arbitrary goalscoring statistics are rarely the whole story.
Goals scored don't indicate how Doyle was instrumental in keeping Wolves up last season or how he's acquired appreciative, admiring glances from many Premiership managers or how his constant work rate, physicality and clever running open up space. He's not having a great season, injury disrupted and in a poor side, and we'd all like to see him score more goals - but he's got more than enough class to see him through. His performances for Ireland are consistently good and often excellent.
Why are you citing his career goals? Long joined Reading from the LOI when he was 18 and took his time to find his feet. How many he's scored in six seasons is totally irrelevant - he's hot now. So Stokes, but personally I'd take Long's goals in the Championship as more indicative of international quality than Stokes' at Celtic. Long's form in green has borne it out.
Stokes has had opportunities, having being involved with the squad and having the chance to impress in training. Not saying he didn't anything particularly wrong but it's not like he's being totally ignored.
Fair enough on the games point, but he seemed to be rotated quite a bit a while ago as I recall. Still, again, he's had plenty of opportunities outside the SPL which means he's got more to prove than some...
Now I understand where your obsession with goalscoring is coming from...
There's more to this goalscoring malarkey than just stats. For instance, I personally believe Doyle would score a lot more for Ireland if Keane wasn't around. He simply has to do a lot of the leg work, pulling centre backs around, allowing Robbie to exploit the space.
It's hard to know who will emerge to take Keane's place, but I wouldn't be against anyone. Especially not Shane Long. This time last year I never thought he'd be a credible option for a competitive game. But he was excellent in Slovakia, scored against Russia (a top side) and appears to give defenders real problems. Maybe this time last year I'd agree with you about Stokes but it's unfair, and unrealistic, for me to do so now - Long has proved people wrong, Stokes hasn't yet.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
Interesting that you make such a concession for Long but still seem to judge Stokes by his "failures" at much bigger clubs than Reading when he was a teenager.
Not disputing that. Stats can still be a useful way of evaluating how a striker is doing though.
I certainly wouldn't bet against Long taking Keane's place in the team either, but that's not what I meant.
I was merely answering your strange 'career goals stat' by pointing out both players development is very obviously not like-for-like.
You can hardly damn Long for failing at Reading when he's maintained his place and is now firing them up the league table (be like damning Paul McGrath because he had a tough time at Man Utd).
Stokes, however, unquestionably failed at Sunderland as well as Sheff Utd and Crystal Palace on loan (two clubs definitely not 'much bigger') than Reading.
I know, I know - they were loan deals etc etc. But then who's making concessions?
Their career development is only relevant because Stokes has talent teased Irish fans for five seasons, and we're too wary to get too excited again. As you said, IF he keeps his head together he could be a big player. Big if though...
The point you're making is Stokes has more potential to be the new 'Robbie Keane' ie Ireland's main goalscorerer, than Shane Long, right? I'm merely pointing out that's a strange point of view as Stokes is only proven at SPL and has scored the same amount of goals this season, playing for a dominant team, as Long - a player who is performing just as well for a poorer side in more competitive league and has shown himself up to the rigours of international football.
You don't seem to be overly hyping Stokes so much as selling Long short (ba-dum-tish).
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
You seem to apply the here and now to Long, and dismiss what's gone before, yet apply what's gone before to Robbie Keane, and dismiss the here and now. I agree with you overall though!
Compared to communion boy Long, Stokes is the dodgy, not quite contrite, prodigal son.
What impresses me most, is not that Stokes is banging in goals but that his overall work rate for the team has improved remarkably.
"It is all about now and I have said before if I didn't play for Ireland and someone else came in, I have always said I would walk away."
How do people see that? To me it sounds like if keane doesn't get picked he will retire. Thats the not the petulant attitude to have serving your country.
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I'm not dismissing the here and now for Stokes, I said he was in fine form, just like Long. But the comparison was made in a very direct way by Nedser (career goals) and I was responding to that.
There are different arguments for every player, it's not one size fits all. In terms of here and now, Ciaran Clark's a great prospect in great form but I wouldn't have him in the Ireland side for Richard Dunne who's been patchy to poor recently. Robbie gets extra lives for the same reasons.
In terms of evaluating future potential, Long and Stokes have different considerations. Stokes probably has greater potential, has time and is clearly improving. But he's still only done it consistently in one league and has chewed up a lot of lives at 22. Long has taken has time and was dismissed as a no-hoper this time last year - but has improved greatly and is rightly getting his reward.
Stokes might be getting an unfair shake because of a perceived 'reputation' or possibly because he's flattered to deceive on more than a few occasions. Whereas Long flew under the radar and has only emerged.
It's great to see Stokes improve his work rate and bang in some lovely goals, but he's still got plenty to prove. I hope he does it but, for now, it's quite right Long is our third choice.
It's a fairly heartening debate to be having - Ireland probably haven't had so many potential strikers in decent form ever. A Robbie resurgence at Upton Park and we'd be in rude health up front for once.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
That would be a cynical interpretation of Keane's comments and how can you tolerate an existence/live with yourself, whereby even a Dublin gurrier has better english than you?
Why aren't you making the same case for Rooney and Sammon? Both playing well on the SPL and scoring goals.
I am very indifferent towards Celtic.
Just saw this interview on RTE.Keane seemed arrogant and ignorant to the Irish journalist.It struck me as being something like Stephen ireland might say...not good.
Last edited by SUB of the day; 01/02/2011 at 6:36 PM.
Just saw this myself as well, didnt like it either, although very unlike Robbie so im willing to wait and see if he clarifies the comments. Previously he has shown and said nothing other than how proud he is to represent Ireland.
Why would he even say something like that? Baffling.
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