Basque and Catalan national teams?

[lopez]

Just a correction, there's nothing in the rules of Athletic Bilbao stopping them from playing non Basques. They just don't do it.

Like this player:

http://www.athletic-club.net/acc/hom...&jug=404&idi=1

Sciedad play foreigners but not Spanish folk.

Like these players

http://www.realsociedad.com/caste/ho...45100&fnd=NOVO

http://www.realsociedad.com/caste/ho...fnd=RIVAS,%20D.

http://www.realsociedad.com/caste/ho...43648&fnd=CIFU

http://www.realsociedad.com/caste/ho...25&fnd=GERARDO

http://www.realsociedad.com/caste/ho...70&fnd=JUANITO

Incidentally in the post - dictatorship era, how come a club with such a pride in Basque nationalism continues to call itself Real Sociedad, and that there seems to be no vocal group calling for a rename?

In all fairness Dodge it was far more symbolic than a mere "international friendly" if that was all it was than why bother having the article at all.

I think the fact that this fixture was last played in the seventies during the Franco era says everything about the reality of this 'international': The equivalent in Ireland being Munster v Leinster prior to the ERC and the Celtic League.

I don't think you'll change my mind on Catalans, they're not referred to as the Jews of Spain for nothing

I'm lost on this one.

Read Jimmy Burns book 'Barca' for a little balance

Even Burns admits this excellent hagiography was more than just a little biased.

Yep, was just saying that the casual football fan (i.e. those not interested in the nationalistic angle) wouldn't be arsed going to it. A Spain v Peru friendly played in Barcelona's olympic stadium last year got 20,000 at it

This is quite a good attendance for Barcelona. 6,000 saw Spain play Denmark in the 70s. Maybe its something to do with what Lim till i die says about Catalans. The last time Spain played in Bilbao in 1967 they got 30K against Turkey, in a group that included ourselves. The gate for us was 5K less in Valencia and there were 5K more for the crucial Czech game in Madrid. More interestingly was the difference between the two friendlies between Spain and England in the eighties. The first played in Barcelona attracted 50K. The second in Madrid attracted 35K. Traditionally 'la seleccion' has been poorly supported across Spain, and the title of the team seems to uphold the indifference.

One common trait among Spaniards is that they are hugely proud of the town/village where they are from and are genuinely convinced that their village's wine, landscape, women, etc. are unrivalled the world over.

I think you hit the nail on the head here, and this trait is born from the fact that Spain is the most diverse country in Europe. Downtown Alicante looks exactly the same as downtown La Coruna and yet it's the little things that suggest there is a chasm between the two. Things like food. Then there is the well kept bullring in Alicante in contrast to the constant legal objections in Galicia to bullfighting by many residents. And of course the language. My grandmother moved from the latter to the former having never been outside Galicia in Spain. In the disorientated way of many of the elderly, she thought she was in France.

It is easy to generalise about anything, but I've seen Ikurrinas and Catalan flags at Spain games and I've seen people wearing Spain shirts at games involving Barcelona. Ball, sadly for the excellent writer he is, talks a lot of cojones IMO in the article, but in a way I can see his logic (if he's Madridista others here claim he is), although he fails to admit it if that's the case. Firstly he uses an example of comparing England with Spain. Spain is a country unified between Castille & Leon, Aragon (which included Catalonia) and Navarra (which included the Basques). The unification wasn't a case of force and invasion (like Ireland) by one party on the other. The use of the title of United Kingdom of Iberia can be shortened by the use of the word Spain (as in Britain for England, Wales and Scotland). They mean the same.

He uses the example of the 1920s Olympic team and then questions the participants on their nationalism purely on the grounds of where they are born, a typical British (and Irish to be honest) trait it has to be said. What exactly were their politics? The Basque country and Navarra were the home of some of the most extreme Spanish nationalists, the Carlists. Spain's most prominent post-dictatorship Francoist sporting administrator, Juan Samaranch, was from (shock, horror!) Barcelona. And then we have Joan Laporta, the 'Visca Catalunya' Barcelona president. Presumably he was at the game. Was his brother-in-law, a former member of the Barca board who also doubled as a director of a surreal foundation aimed at keeping alive the memory of Fat Frank? http://www.fnff.es/enlaces.htm

Normal unionists - like those on a demonstration in San Sebastian a couple of years ago - celebrate region/nation and state by carrying both flags (eg. Ikurrina and the Spanish flag), something that those at Fundacion Francisco Franco would find abhorrent.

Incidentally, Ball mentions the two 'nations'' leaders at the game. Galicia played Uruguay in it's first international since the second republic last December and both the leader of the BNG and the regional PP were present (one local newspaper showed the PP leader celbrating one of the goals). However, this didn't prevent a pre-match spat between the two parties over ticket allocation to party members (the BNG wanted the lot and the 'Spanish' PP to get none).

As for the question of a Basque and Catalan team in FIFA/UEFA competitions. Well how's this going to work? Spain is still a uinited country and if opinion polls are to be believed it's going to stay that way for a long time. The players who feel they are good enough to compete in a World Cup will opt for Spain, the cr*p ones or that rare breed of ideological minded player, like Oleguer, will play for Catalonia or Euskadi. (Oleguer, by the way was apparently considering playing for la seleccion before the World Cup. Aragones, given either the player's views in the past, or the fact he's not that good, eventually declined to pick him). Footballers are exactly that mercenary, as we have seen regarding the Irish team, and to suggest that regionalism destroys any chance of Spain winning any trophies should remember that Spain won the Basketball world cup with an equally diverse squad.

One final point. If UEFA and FIFA are to admit the Basque and Catalan national teams then stands to reason that they must submit their own leagues aswell. And here is where the true hypocrisy of Catalan nationalism may well be shown. Imagine Barcelona's highlight of the season a game against Gimnastic, Sabadell or Lleida, and the financial implications this entails. On the other hand we may well see Barcelona 'elect' to remain in the 'Spanish' Liga, choosing to unite with all that we all believe they detest.

[wws]

good post. Post of the Month in fact¬

Phill Ball lives up the north and I think watches sociedad as his team of choice
hardly a madrid man
he just wrote a book about the biggest team in Spain - thats how writers make money