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Thread: Stadium Updates (All Clubs)

  1. #6921
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Other projects have been delivered under the same circumstances. I'll accept inflationary pressures and pairing back on SCG would have slowed things down but there is a lot more to the delays, and the defense above is largely a bunch of excuses. Even getting the main stand to usability and the pitch in like Athlone, would not be 15-20 years brexit/covid/recession/inflation/government delays - what about self serving construction companys bailing on agreements. If agreements were not in place then it is the club that is inept. Was there the required tender process for to appoint the construction company? I ask because if there wasnt and the builder has gone bust there is little recourse to get funding released as a new tender process et al would be needed. The Dept of Sport really dont want incomplete facilities that they have already allocated grants for - the will seek a solution but they will walk away if there are issues with landownership, grant money not used as intended, or disputes internally at a club or with external parties eg builders or landowners.
    Most of the projects you speak of being completed in that time had either local big business or political personalities pushing them, Harps had none of this.

    When the recession hit in 2008 the volunteers running Harps were busy enough with just keeping the club afloat and whilst they just about did so in several seasons those people deserve full credit as many LOI clubs either completely disappeared from LOI (Kildare, Monaghan, Fingal) or went into administration or very close to it (Derry, Athlone, Cork, Waterford) in that time. The new stadium was very much down the list of priorities then.

    Many fans of other clubs just don't realize that Harps have a whole list of issues the majority of LOI clubs do not have, ie travel & accommodation much greater for Harps, no big financial supporter, running, cost of running their own stadium, and much more
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  2. #6922
    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Fair enough, keeping a club going is obviously more important than breaking a club in favour of a new stadium. But we havent been in a 15-20 year spell of austerity, grant money has been allocated and drawn down, the new ground/stand started, stopped (there hasnt been a clear answer as to why), capital grants were subsequently withheld or an application rejected, why? Additional money was then allocated to redo plans on a project that was already started. There are now another set of plans again and looking to change the method of construction which could have been a cheaper and quicker option originally. The reasons given for the delays have been govt ignoring the North West, Brexit, Inflation, recession, Im sure the Ukrainian War could be added now. Finn Park was to be sold but that was taken off the table as it is needed for underage and womens teams. Funding was said to have been in place from early on. It was to be a completed facility before moving in when the main stand could have been completed and accommodated the sort of crowds that Harps get. With all that has been said, you'd have to wonder what isnt being said and one aspect is that it looks like a construction stopped playing ball when Finn Park's value dipped. Which is far more understandable for delays than say Brexit.

    This stuff about travel costs, yes it is more than being based in Dublin where there are a number of clubs but Ireland is a small country and the vast majority of Harps games are within 3 hours travel especially with Cork, Limerick and Waterford in the 1st Division, not all clubs have a wealthy benefactor either, and not all clubs are as lucky as Shamrock Rovers by having a stadium built for them - the excetion rather than the rule. If Harps were already stretched by greater overheads than other league clubs then maybe taking on a major ground development was a folly. The Dept of Sport had obvious concerns about the project and it'd be interesting to hear their take!!

  3. #6923
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Fair enough, keeping a club going is obviously more important than breaking a club in favour of a new stadium. But we havent been in a 15-20 year spell of austerity, grant money has been allocated and drawn down, the new ground/stand started, stopped (there hasnt been a clear answer as to why), capital grants were subsequently withheld or an application rejected, why? Additional money was then allocated to redo plans on a project that was already started. There are now another set of plans again and looking to change the method of construction which could have been a cheaper and quicker option originally. The reasons given for the delays have been govt ignoring the North West, Brexit, Inflation, recession, Im sure the Ukrainian War could be added now. Finn Park was to be sold but that was taken off the table as it is needed for underage and womens teams. Funding was said to have been in place from early on. It was to be a completed facility before moving in when the main stand could have been completed and accommodated the sort of crowds that Harps get. With all that has been said, you'd have to wonder what isnt being said and one aspect is that it looks like a construction stopped playing ball when Finn Park's value dipped. Which is far more understandable for delays than say Brexit.

    This stuff about travel costs, yes it is more than being based in Dublin where there are a number of clubs but Ireland is a small country and the vast majority of Harps games are within 3 hours travel especially with Cork, Limerick and Waterford in the 1st Division, not all clubs have a wealthy benefactor either, and not all clubs are as lucky as Shamrock Rovers by having a stadium built for them - the excetion rather than the rule. If Harps were already stretched by greater overheads than other league clubs then maybe taking on a major ground development was a folly. The Dept of Sport had obvious concerns about the project and it'd be interesting to hear their take!!
    3 hours travel is a 6 hour round trip. most other Premier clubs only face that when travelling to Harps or Derry, Harps and Derry every 2nd week(excluding when they facing each other and sligo).

    As for all you point about other projects and delays with Finn Park, sure Oriel is not vastly greater than Finn park and there has been little improvement there
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    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neish View Post
    3 hours travel is a 6 hour round trip. most other Premier clubs only face that when travelling to Harps or Derry, Harps and Derry every 2nd week(excluding when they facing each other and sligo).

    As for all you point about other projects and delays with Finn Park, sure Oriel is not vastly greater than Finn park and there has been little improvement there
    Ans there it is, the grand slam of excuses!

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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    Both Tierney and O'Doherty are in a position to know and they've specifically referred to Stormont money from the Sub-Regional fund being due to the Brandywell, including Phase Two/Farren Stand. They're not making it up.
    And as for the exact sum involved, inflation over a decade, plus the fact that some of the money has been put forward by the Council, may mean that it will be reduced from £10m.
    But you know the way Stormont works (or did do when Robinson and McGuinness were in charge): "If Themmuns is gettin' £Xm, then we must get it, too."
    This is why trying to debate anything with you on here is both maddening and pointless. Whenever you're pulled up for getting something wrong (e.g. your laughable claims about the LSL), rather than just hold your hands up and have the grace, sense and integrity to admit you got it wrong - you instead pursue a dual strategy of pointless tangets to try to hide the fact you were wrong, whilst also doubling down on the original daft claim yet again.

    To dissect your latest comments :

    1) I have never claimed that there would be NO Stormont money for the Branyswlel, so your claim on that is irrelevant. As I have made clear repeatedly - and as the newspaper articles I posted previously to you on this have made clear - the plan for the Brandywell was for that Stormont regional fund to provide £3m of the £10m build cost. You made a claim that the contribution being sought from Stormont had been £10m, when in fact that was just the TOTAL cost of the project. But rather than just hold your hands up and accept that was an error, you're persisting with that £10m Stormont claim. For the love of god, please just stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    You tried to derail my whole point by asserting that the Brandywell physically cannot accommodate 8k capacity.
    But the Stormont documentation I quoted specifies "6k-8k", which lower figure brings the Brandywell back into the equation.
    In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if that capacity range was deliberately arrived at to allow for both sites to come within it i.e. 8k for The Oval and 6k for the Brandywell.
    2) You don't need anyone to lend you a hand on derailing your own posts EG As for the Brandywell's potential capacity, you have previously admitted that you haven't been in the ground since the new stand went in there. So you're not exactly familiar with the place. Once that new stand is completed, the ground will have something like a 5,500 capacity (Derry fans please correct if wrong). I therefore challenge you to explain where an extra 2,500 could be fitted into the Brandywell. I don't care what any document may have suggested, or your theories about trying to equalise the capacity of the Brandywell and the Oval (like that is a credible issue for anyone really) - I'm talking about common feckin sense and obvious facts. Go on Google earth, look at the Brandywell, and tell us where an extra 2,500 vould be accomodated once the new stand there is completed all the way along. And please - don't bother replying until you've done that exercise, as it'll make you realise where you're going wrong.

  6. #6926
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Fair enough, keeping a club going is obviously more important than breaking a club in favour of a new stadium. But we havent been in a 15-20 year spell of austerity, grant money has been allocated and drawn down, the new ground/stand started, stopped (there hasnt been a clear answer as to why), capital grants were subsequently withheld or an application rejected, why? Additional money was then allocated to redo plans on a project that was already started. There are now another set of plans again and looking to change the method of construction which could have been a cheaper and quicker option originally. The reasons given for the delays have been govt ignoring the North West, Brexit, Inflation, recession, Im sure the Ukrainian War could be added now. Finn Park was to be sold but that was taken off the table as it is needed for underage and womens teams. Funding was said to have been in place from early on. It was to be a completed facility before moving in when the main stand could have been completed and accommodated the sort of crowds that Harps get. With all that has been said, you'd have to wonder what isnt being said and one aspect is that it looks like a construction stopped playing ball when Finn Park's value dipped. Which is far more understandable for delays than say Brexit.

    This stuff about travel costs, yes it is more than being based in Dublin where there are a number of clubs but Ireland is a small country and the vast majority of Harps games are within 3 hours travel especially with Cork, Limerick and Waterford in the 1st Division, not all clubs have a wealthy benefactor either, and not all clubs are as lucky as Shamrock Rovers by having a stadium built for them - the excetion rather than the rule. If Harps were already stretched by greater overheads than other league clubs then maybe taking on a major ground development was a folly. The Dept of Sport had obvious concerns about the project and it'd be interesting to hear their take!!
    Surely pointing to Brexit as part of the reason Finn Harp's new stadium hasn't progressed is somewhat of a stretch? What impact would it genuinely have had on the issue?

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    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    Surely pointing to Brexit as part of the reason Finn Harp's new stadium hasn't progressed is somewhat of a stretch? What impact would it genuinely have had on the issue?
    Its Inspector Gadget levels of a stretch!

  8. #6928
    Capped Player nigel-harps1954's Avatar
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    I would wager strongly that Brexit had absolutely nothing to do with it.

    I'm in no position to be saying what did or didn't happen, but certainly the economic crash initially played it's part, then some political reasons, then obviously we had the redrawn plans a couple of years ago and since then the massive increase in building costs meaning plans had to be redrawn again to a more cost effective solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post
    I would wager strongly that Brexit had absolutely nothing to do with it.

    I'm in no position to be saying what did or didn't happen, but certainly the economic crash initially played it's part, then some political reasons, then obviously we had the redrawn plans a couple of years ago and since then the massive increase in building costs meaning plans had to be redrawn again to a more cost effective solution.
    Shouldnt that have been the case from the start?

  10. #6930
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    There is no question that in retrospect different decisions could have been made for the project but the FHFC side have absolutely acted in good faith at all times. Note that a lot of assumptions are being made above that are based on nothing but speculation.

    The crash meant the value of Finn Park went through the floor, plus the environment generally became much more difficult. Also note that large scale grants are 70% funding meaning substantial other funding must be secured to get things moving- an issue for many many clubs all around the country not just us. Hopefully we are now close to getting things lined up and moving again.
    #NeverStopNotGivingUp

  11. #6931
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    It is often a stumbling black to obtain the % of funding required to draw down the full grant, and of course that the grant can be withdrawn and yer starting almost from scratch if let sitting. There is a company, possibly as part of the Dept of Sport that provides cheap loans to assist with this issue. It had become problematic elsewhere where a construction company provided the self funded % to draw down and get access to grant money and hence caused all sorts of issues on ownership especially in the event of eg delays, or disputes with county council building control departments - maybe by holding the project to ransom. Its also now why most projects like this are phased rather turnkey.

    I totally acknowledge that comments or observations that I personally have made are based on hearsay, including much being said here including that full funding for the total project was in situ. I would also accept that Finn Harps have acted in good faith eg there is no alluding to grant money being used for anything but the project as has happened to delay and even totally derail other capital projects in this country before.

    I do find it interesting that Finn Harps have been specifically stated to have acted in good faith. Have others not acted in good faith? if this is the case then it is understandable that the Dept of Sport have kept things at arms length for so long. It is also understandable that people at FH have not or cannot state why/what original agreements have not been fulfilled, but that contributes to people speculating, joining the dots, mainly that a developer reneged on agreements when there was a fall off in land value - imo thats tough luck, speculating on land values that dont return an expected opportunity for profit (or greater profit) is part of life and should lead to the courts getting involved unless there is a wink and not agreement in place. I would speculate that a construction company that is to get a tract of development land (Finn Park) will also have received the bulk of grant money drawn down for work done. If the construction company went out of business eg then again delays are understandable but that takes teasing out especially if work paid for by a grant has not happened as per the scheduled build and phased budget release when the commencement notice is issued. Regular audits of progress are supposed to be done but not something Ive found we are particularly good at and things tend to only crop up when something is wrong. We should be doing a lot more to protect the investment made by SPGs.

    For what its worth when the YDC was build at Oriel Park I was uneasy that it was the club owners construction company that seemed to be the only tender, gaining control/ownership while being paid a wedge to build via a SPC grant, coflict of interest and all that. The YDC was also partially built on land not owned and bar the 2nd landowner being willing to cede his part of his land to the build, the whole lot could have been demolished, I wouldnt bet the piggy bank that it was a surveyors mistake or how LouthCoCo even granted permission when 2 landowners were involved. was the building moved and how did Building Control not notice when foundations were marked out. Also the land in question was bought for 800k, the significant tract of land remaining was subsequently sold for 60k 5 or 6 years later. In 2014 when Dundalk FC was for sale the new owners didnt want the YDC included in the purchase of the club due to the substantial building levies on the development still outstanding - levies stay with the building not the builder albeit these should have been factored in to cost when the grant was drawn down. Such messiness can have ongoing negative impact on future grant applications.

    All in all when there are 15-20 years from the sod being turned it is usually due to significant messing and even while acting in good faith doesnt rule out errors maybe due to naivety, trying to get as much for as little as possible so cutting corners, not having a architect/project manager to keep builders in check, taking offers from constructions companies to get things moving which may be grand until things go wrong and its found there isnt some sort of recourse. It cant all be blamed, as above, recession, inlfation, travel costs or flipping brexit etc.
    Last edited by Nesta99; 23/05/2022 at 2:15 PM.

  12. #6932
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    I see they’ve started work on the 4th stand in Tallaght,can we just let SDCC look after all the grounds in the country!!

  13. #6933
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Ans there it is, the grand slam of excuses!
    More of a comparison really, with all the money Dundalk earned in last 8 years or so not much has changed in Oriel since i first visited it back in 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neish View Post
    More of a comparison really, with all the money Dundalk earned in last 8 years or so not much has changed in Oriel since i first visited it back in 2003
    Not much has changed since my first game in 1985, and older fans again can probably say similar from the 70s. I dont know what it has to do with Finn Harps tbh, we have hardly been standard bearers for facilities from the late 60's so poor comparison.
    Last edited by Nesta99; 28/05/2022 at 6:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Not much has changed since my first game in 1985, and older fans again can probably say similar from the 70s. I dont know what it has to do with Finn Harps tbh, we have hardly been standard bearers for facilities from the late 60's so poor comparison.
    You are asking for reason on no movement on the new Harps stadium, have heard and read about both new Dundalk stadium plus redevelopment of Oriel fairly regularly in last 10 years or so, yet nothing has happened. Its not as easy to just get a stadium built there many, many bridges to cross to get there.

    The Northwest and especially Donegal is usually last on the list for funding, there has been talk of a bypass for Ballybofey/Stranorlar since the 70's or 80's, similar on a public swimming which we finally got in 2014.
    Last edited by Neish; 29/05/2022 at 11:02 AM.
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    International Prospect Nesta99's Avatar
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    Stadia that need any exemptions for licensing get round this by having plans in the works, every club that needs to hence have plans. Its not the same as permission granted, money allocated, project started and then stalled for nearly 15 years. 6600 all seater was ambitious but there would have been little wrong with an initial 1600 stand and some terracing and move on from that starting point. The revised revised paired back plans now make a whole lot more sense though will be more expensive, 8mil compared to 6 originally. I can assure you Louth and probably every country/region have people that seem to believe that they are the neglected spots by govt.

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    We should have word on Richmond by mid July but it’s looking good. We are getting on board a city council development plan alongside Shels & Bohs. The rumours are a 8000 all seater & we hand over some land to the council. How we will fit 8k in im not sure but I’d suspect the land in question is the wooded area across the camac.

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    International Prospect sbgawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D24Saint View Post
    We should have word on Richmond by mid July but it’s looking good. We are getting on board a city council development plan alongside Shels & Bohs. The rumours are a 8000 all seater & we hand over some land to the council. How we will fit 8k in im not sure but I’d suspect the land in question is the wooded area across the camac.
    Would be great if that happened but i find it hard to believe tbh, also the wooded land over the camac is prety small and given it is on a river isnt very good for building

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbgawa View Post
    Would be great if that happened but i find it hard to believe tbh, also the wooded land over the camac is prety small and given it is on a river isnt very good for building
    Wouldn’t think it would be to built on. I’d say the corpo would turn it into some sort of a wetland nature thing. I wouldn’t say they would allow the river to be built over. It’s badly needed as Richmond as much as I love it has become obsolete in its current guise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D24Saint View Post
    Wouldn’t think it would be to built on. I’d say the corpo would turn it into some sort of a wetland nature thing. I wouldn’t say they would allow the river to be built over. It’s badly needed as Richmond as much as I love it has become obsolete in its current guise.
    If they can get an 8,000 all seater into the space available in Richmond i'll start going to mass again , but here's hoping they can get something done .

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