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Thread: Stadium Updates (All Clubs)

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    Quote Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954 View Post

    If there's an estimate of about 30-40% of betting in Ireland done on football, then 30-40% of the betting levy should go to football.
    There are so many flaws in this trail of thought that I struggle for where to begin. This is dreamland stuff, and I mean Donald Trump stumping up 100 mil a year and us having the Trump League of Ireland dreamland kinda stuff.

    Horse and Greyhound racing literally exist for gambling. That is why they will get some of the dividends from it. They would not exist at least in anything resembling their current form if it wasn’t for betting and likewise most betting firms we know of today would not exist if if wasn’t for racing.

    Association football and bookmaking never had and never will have this type of shared existence, a bond build on a reliance of each other to survive.

    Now I am not going to go much into the %s of betting done in Ireland by sport/event etc but needless to say the figures for betting on the Irish Domestic game are miniscule. There will be one man in China using obscure Macau based betting firms to bet more on one Irish game than this entire island would bet on a whole Friday evenings League of Ireland programme. We would have as much chance getting funding from Macau.

    Finally, most betting firms (with the exception of a few, Powers/Hills/365) are itching to get further away from all forms of sports betting and drag the whole thing toward casino and games betting (or FOBT’s if in store)

    This idea of getting money from betting for the League of Ireland is really pie in the sky stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    Is it a sustainable set up though ? Shamrock Rovers are only one part of the business rationale for Tallaght Stadium. What other sporting fixtures, entertainment events, conferences etc would be attracted to a stadium in Ballybofey, for example, to make a substantial council investment there pay for itself every year ? Because that's what's driven the expansion of Tallaght - if not from day one, then at least beyond it consisting solely of a single stand.
    What part of "identify as many potential situations like that as possible" screams Ballybofey to you?
    Covid-negative, maybe; I haven't checked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John83 View Post
    What part of "identify as many potential situations like that as possible" screams Ballybofey to you?
    Because Ballybofey would be the norm in this, not the exception.

    How many places would genuinely be able to justify a council-run Tallaght-esque facility without it becoming a white elephant ? I'm really not sure even somewhere like Cork could. There are so many other places there to attract large events, conferences etc as it is. And on the very rare occasion that Real Madrid did want to fulfil a money-raising game in Cork, I'm sure the GAA could be persuaded to open their facilities again now that the hoodoo was broken by the Lia Miller saga. And even if they couldn't - you can't build a new publicly-owned multi-purpose venue on the hope that a Real Madrid might want to use it once a generation.

    We can disagree about Cork if you like, but let's look at the rest of the league. Tallaght Stadium means that it's unlikely anywhere else in Greater Dublin south of the river could justify a similar facility. So that rules out UCD, Cabinteely, Pats and Bray. The redeveloped Dalymount will be the equivalent for north Dublin, covering Bohs and Shels. Beyond that there could be a weak argument made about places like Drogheda, Dundalk or Waterford, but I just don't think they have the populations to attract enough usage to make it viable. And absolutely zero chance for the likes of Longford, Harps, Sligo, Wexford, Cobh and Athlone. They just don't have the populations.

    The one possible exception could be Galway. But again - it's a small city with other options also competing for the limited amount of events they could attract.

    So where else realistically could we see a Tallaght-type situation where a council views a stadium with an LOI anchor tenant as a useful asset for it to attract lots of other events to the area without it being a drain on its own resources ? Even a smaller version of Tallaght still wouldn't help much IMO, as you'd still have a base level of running costs. I'm not convinced that a 25% smaller venue would knock 25% off of the annual operating costs, for example. And that would affect its commercial viability for other events too.
    Last edited by EatYerGreens; 05/03/2021 at 3:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    Because Ballybofey would be the norm in this, not the exception.

    How many places would genuinely be able to justify a council-run Tallaght-esque facility without it becoming a white elephant ? I'm really not sure even somewhere like Cork could. There are so many other places there to attract large events, conferences etc as it is.
    I've attended an academic conference in Páirc Uí Chaoimh; very nice facility. I bet it cost a few quid to rent, too. Not everything has to be about Real Madrid.

    You can argue about competition, but the fact is that the GAA have that facility and an LoI club does not. We're playing catch-up because the FAI is ****e at infrastructural investment and attracting government money.
    Covid-negative, maybe; I haven't checked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    Is it a sustainable set up though ? Shamrock Rovers are only one part of the business rationale for Tallaght Stadium. What other sporting fixtures, entertainment events, conferences etc would be attracted to a stadium in Ballybofey, for example, to make a substantial council investment there pay for itself every year ? Because that's what's driven the expansion of Tallaght - if not from day one, then at least beyond it consisting solely of a single stand.
    Im sorry but that's such BS. Loads of infrastructure is built in the country that isint 'sustainable' … roads and bridges for example. Or look at Iarnrod Eireann and Bus Eireann, they loose money but they are infrastructure that is required for the community and for a region to grow and to promote itself.
    Said it before, look at the North West or even draw a line from Dublin to Galway - there is no motorways or any decent rail system above that line. Its forgotten country, always has been.
    We pay our taxes too and have a right to good infrastrucre the same as everybody else. And look, nobody is looking for the Tallaght stadium in Ballybofey or the Luas in Sligo just something fit for purpose. How is a county or area supposed to grow their economy or society when they infrastructure is from the 1980s.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucket View Post
    Is your whole ground in use? I thought there was a safety issue on one side?
    There was but its sorted out now Bucket as we have started putting in seats in behind the goal again which was originally closed and poured in concrete where there was a health hazard before. The last few games of last season that work was complete!
    Last edited by Martinho II; 05/03/2021 at 8:18 PM.
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    EatYerGreens I think people are suggesting raising the tax from 1% to 2%. So racing and dogs keep receiving the same amount with the rest used for infrastructure for other sports

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucket View Post
    EatYerGreens I think people are suggesting raising the tax from 1% to 2%. So racing and dogs keep receiving the same amount with the rest used for infrastructure for other sports
    That may cover the capital costs of building a stadium. But that's not the thing that causes problems for local authorities. They can always borrow money for capital projects after all, but they can't for running costs (revenue projects). If a council-owned facility doesn't pay for itself then it has to be budgeted for year after year after year - in good times and in bad. And that leave sit open to political change, voter fatigue etc.

    Gambling taxes are unlikely to be used to cover the annual running costs of individual stadia either, as that just encourages white elephants and puts the future of such facilities at the mercy of policy and tax vagaries.

    There's no point someone giving you a lovely big house if you can't afford the upkeep of it and there aren't enough people interested in renting a room off you there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redobit View Post
    Im sorry but that's such BS. Loads of infrastructure is built in the country that isint 'sustainable' … roads and bridges for example. Or look at Iarnrod Eireann and Bus Eireann, they loose money but they are infrastructure that is required for the community and for a region to grow and to promote itself.
    Said it before, look at the North West or even draw a line from Dublin to Galway - there is no motorways or any decent rail system above that line. Its forgotten country, always has been.
    We pay our taxes too and have a right to good infrastrucre the same as everybody else. And look, nobody is looking for the Tallaght stadium in Ballybofey or the Luas in Sligo just something fit for purpose. How is a county or area supposed to grow their economy or society when they infrastructure is from the 1980s.
    You're not understanding the difference between capital costs (the money needed upfront to create something - which can legally be borrowed against) and running costs (the money needed each and every year to keep it going - which can't legally be borrowed against). Motorways are very expensive to install, but have a relatively low revenue cost impact. The issue with Bus Eireann and Ianrod Eireann are the revenue costs every year, as their income receipts don't cover the cost of running their networks. Regardless - the state picks up the shortfall as public transport is deemed a public necessity and a social good. And rightly so. Good luck making a similar argument to government for a League of Ireland stadium in Wexford, for example.
    Last edited by EatYerGreens; 06/03/2021 at 5:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    That may cover the capital costs of building a stadium. But that's not the thing that causes problems for local authorities. They can always borrow money for capital projects after all, but they can't for running costs (revenue projects). If a council-owned facility doesn't pay for itself then it has to be budgeted for year after year after year - in good times and in bad. And that leave sit open to political change, voter fatigue etc.

    Gambling taxes are unlikely to be used to cover the annual running costs of individual stadia either, as that just encourages white elephants and puts the future of such facilities at the mercy of policy and tax vagaries.

    There's no point someone giving you a lovely big house if you can't afford the upkeep of it and there aren't enough people interested in renting a room off you there.
    Sorry, but I must of stopped following the conversation adequately. I'm just saying the tax should be doubled, dogs and horses continue to get their current grants, the rest goes to sports infrastructure. Whether or not cocos are involved is of no interest to me.
    No reason really why that money should go to a council to build something, for a LOI club to then lease, instead of going directly to a club to build themselves

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    Because Ballybofey would be the norm in this, not the exception.

    How many places would genuinely be able to justify a council-run Tallaght-esque facility without it becoming a white elephant ? I'm really not sure even somewhere like Cork could. There are so many other places there to attract large events, conferences etc as it is. And on the very rare occasion that Real Madrid did want to fulfil a money-raising game in Cork, I'm sure the GAA could be persuaded to open their facilities again now that the hoodoo was broken by the Lia Miller saga. And even if they couldn't - you can't build a new publicly-owned multi-purpose venue on the hope that a Real Madrid might want to use it once a generation.

    We can disagree about Cork if you like, but let's look at the rest of the league. Tallaght Stadium means that it's unlikely anywhere else in Greater Dublin south of the river could justify a similar facility. So that rules out UCD, Cabinteely, Pats and Bray. The redeveloped Dalymount will be the equivalent for north Dublin, covering Bohs and Shels. Beyond that there could be a weak argument made about places like Drogheda, Dundalk or Waterford, but I just don't think they have the populations to attract enough usage to make it viable. And absolutely zero chance for the likes of Longford, Harps, Sligo, Wexford, Cobh and Athlone. They just don't have the populations.

    The one possible exception could be Galway. But again - it's a small city with other options also competing for the limited amount of events they could attract.

    So where else realistically could we see a Tallaght-type situation where a council views a stadium with an LOI anchor tenant as a useful asset for it to attract lots of other events to the area without it being a drain on its own resources ? Even a smaller version of Tallaght still wouldn't help much IMO, as you'd still have a base level of running costs. I'm not convinced that a 25% smaller venue would knock 25% off of the annual operating costs, for example. And that would affect its commercial viability for other events too.
    Isnt the Brandywell council owned? is it a burden on the council? certainly redevelopment was publicly funded. I dont see too much being said in replicating Tallaght or scaled down versions but there is a role for councils to play in some circumstances. Tallaght was an intervention by SDCC on a failed project that was subsequently made to work for them. There are international models that could be considered too. I do think an opportunity was missed by LCC to create a self-sustaining facility with broad community benefits, shared capital and running costs etc. But with a bespoke design suitable to local needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martinho II View Post
    There was but its sorted out now Bucket as we have started putting in seats in behind the goal again which was originally closed and poured in concrete where there was a health hazard before. The last few games of last season that work was complete!
    The Flan Siro looked well this evening on the excellent YouTube stream for the friendly against Utd. Looks like there's construction work going on behind the goal opposite the carpark end. The pitch was very bobbly though

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCWA View Post
    Association football and bookmaking never had and never will have this type of shared existence, a bond build on a reliance of each other to survive.

    Now I am not going to go much into the %s of betting done in Ireland by sport/event etc but needless to say the figures for betting on the Irish Domestic game are miniscule. There will be one man in China using obscure Macau based betting firms to bet more on one Irish game than this entire island would bet on a whole Friday evenings League of Ireland programme. We would have as much chance getting funding from Macau.

    Finally, most betting firms (with the exception of a few, Powers/Hills/365) are itching to get further away from all forms of sports betting and drag the whole thing toward casino and games betting (or FOBT’s if in store)

    This idea of getting money from betting for the League of Ireland is really pie in the sky stuff.
    First of all, I don't see the relevance of LOI betting on whether football should get a cut of the gambling tax. Horse and dog racing get 100% of the tax from football bets as it is, and you could argue that horse racing is even further away from the Premier League than the League of Ireland.

    Second, betting firms aren't itching to get away from sports betting. It's their cash cow. They're looking to diversify so they don't lose customers when, for instance, sport isn't happening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucket View Post
    The Flan Siro looked well this evening on the excellent YouTube stream for the friendly against Utd. Looks like there's construction work going on behind the goal opposite the carpark end. The pitch was very bobbly though
    Looks like they're building a little house down there

    Anyone any idea what it's for? A club office or media facilities maybe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Isnt the Brandywell council owned? is it a burden on the council? certainly redevelopment was publicly funded. I dont see too much being said in replicating Tallaght or scaled down versions but there is a role for councils to play in some circumstances. Tallaght was an intervention by SDCC on a failed project that was subsequently made to work for them. There are international models that could be considered too. I do think an opportunity was missed by LCC to create a self-sustaining facility with broad community benefits, shared capital and running costs etc. But with a bespoke design suitable to local needs.
    There's no genuine comparison between the Brandywell and Tallaght Stadium in this regard. Tallaght was a bespoke stadium designed and built from scratch to house Rovers as an anchor tenant, and with the hope of attracting other events into the area as well (which it has had some success in doing). The Brandywell has been a stadium for much longer that Derry City has existed, and hosted all sorts of things in that time. It was a burden for the council up until it was partly refurbished recently, which is why half the stadium sat unused there for 5-10 years, and the only side that was opened had big wooden props all along the back of it to stop a boundary wall falling down. So it has been a burden to the council in the very recent past, who didn't have the funds or will to get it into a decent shape.

    Now it's been partly refurbished Brandywell is entirely used for football and greyhound racing, and hosts a lot of junior/intermediate football in the city. It can't and won't be used in anything like the way Tallaght stadium is or will be for events. And that's not what the council in Derry intended it to be used for either. Plus Brandywell is less than a third of the size of where Tallaght will be after the 4th stand is built. Derry City also rent it for a very low sum that doesn't reflect anything like a commercial rent btw.

    So the only valid comparison between the facilities is they're both council owned and contain a football team. Beyond that they were intended and designed for different levels of usage/ambition, and are very different sizes.

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    Hopefully a bar for away fans

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatYerGreens View Post
    There's no genuine comparison between the Brandywell and Tallaght Stadium in this regard. Tallaght was a bespoke stadium designed and built from scratch to house Rovers as an anchor tenant, and with the hope of attracting other events into the area as well (which it has had some success in doing). The Brandywell has been a stadium for much longer that Derry City has existed, and hosted all sorts of things in that time. It was a burden for the council up until it was partly refurbished recently, which is why half the stadium sat unused there for 5-10 years, and the only side that was opened had big wooden props all along the back of it to stop a boundary wall falling down. So it has been a burden to the council in the very recent past, who didn't have the funds or will to get it into a decent shape.

    Now it's been partly refurbished Brandywell is entirely used for football and greyhound racing, and hosts a lot of junior/intermediate football in the city. It can't and won't be used in anything like the way Tallaght stadium is or will be for events. And that's not what the council in Derry intended it to be used for either. Plus Brandywell is less than a third of the size of where Tallaght will be after the 4th stand is built. Derry City also rent it for a very low sum that doesn't reflect anything like a commercial rent btw.

    So the only valid comparison between the facilities is they're both council owned and contain a football team. Beyond that they were intended and designed for different levels of usage/ambition, and are very different sizes.
    So horses for courses!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nesta99 View Post
    Isnt the Brandywell council owned? is it a burden on the council? certainly redevelopment was publicly funded.
    The Council took over rersponsibility for the stadium around the foundation of the club in 1929 - it had previously been owned/run by the Honourable The Irish Society (a City of London Corporation who, amongst other things, had previously built the Guildhall).

    Afaik the stadium was included in a large sale of assets to the Council by the Society, with the latter making a stipulation that it may only be used for recreational purposes (hence the football and greyhounds etc)

    As regards the 2016/17 redevelopment, this was jointly funded by the Council and Stormont to the tune of around £10m. I don't know what the split was, but I suspect the majority was due to come from Stormont.

    This is because in 2015,with the National Stadium rebuild at Windsor under way, Stormont announced a Sub-Regional Stadium programme to spend a further £36m on upgrading smaller football stadia in NI.

    The biggest chunk of this, £10m, was to go to Glentoran, to develop a mid-sized stadium, with around the same to Derry City - basically money-sharing to reflect power-sharing, it being entirely coincidental that the two stadia are/were in the constituencies of Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness

    Anyhow, Stormont buggered around (technical term) in putting these plans into action, before its suspension put a complete halt to this and myriad other projects - it still hasn't been started, never mind completed, nearly six years later.

    I suspect the Council may have stumped up the funding for the Brandywell, in anticipation of getting some or all reimbursed some day from Stormont, but that's only my guess - I'm entirely open to correction.

    More here, though no mention of Derry, possibly because they've already gone ahead?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51194824

    Anyhow, on a wider note, if Stormont ever did get its act together and spend this money on IL clubs etc, perhaps that might prompt/shame the Irish government into doing something similar for the LOI? (Speculation)

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    Only one phase of the Brandywell redevelopment has been completed, we were promised by Martin McGuinness and the Executive that funding to complete the work was guaranteed (see https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern...-west-38158441 )

    That has went without further mention in recent years and I firmly suspect the Brandywell will now remain untouched for years, in all likelihood until it again falls into a state of disrepair.

    The half stand we have should not be as such. That original intent (or so we were all told) was for that to be completed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    Anyhow, on a wider note, if Stormont ever did get its act together and spend this money on IL clubs etc, perhaps that might prompt/shame the Irish government into doing something similar for the LOI? (Speculation)
    Are you suggesting the Irish government is capable of feeling shame?

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