Staunton & FAI insult to eL players

[Soper]

*Bangs head against keyboard repeatedly*

[ciaraa]

If you bring players into a squad, it must be on the basis that they can step up to the mark and compete consistently, if need be. There may well be one or two individuals in the EL who could do so, but I find it very hard to believe that it is many more than that. This opinion derives from the fact that despite being "heavily scouted" by GB and Continental clubs (as you say) very few are actually being bought - "Show me the Money" is what counts.
A succession of ROI managers have declined to pick EL players over the years, inc. Brian Kerr. Are you saying he didn't know their worth, or was prejudiced against them?
In recent years, NI has resorted to trying some of our top IL players - e.g. Gary Hamilton, Glenn Ferguson and Peter Thompson. These are hardly significantly poorer than their EL counterparts, yet they have been consistently found wanting.
I note that Pat McCourt is in Derry's team, with Patrick Jennings Jr. challenging for the keeper's spot. McCourt (widely recognised as one of the most talented players in the EL), had his chance in England, without hacking it. At Rochdale. And for a young keeper, no name opens doors quicker than PJ Jnr's. He's had contracts and trials galore at all levels in England and wasn't even good enough for non-League.
As for the impressive exploits of Shelbourne and Derry City, fair enough. However, consider this: in recent years, Millwall got to an FA Cup Final and Wycombe to the Semi-Final, ahead of many "big" clubs. Where are they now? How many top players emerged from either team? Tim Cahill for one, plus a couple more at a lower level.
And who are these "high profile" managers the EL has schooled? Sanchez is v.highly qualified, but this stems from his taking a University Degree whilst playing for Reading, followed by post-graduate Management qualifications and Coaching Badges whilst at Wimbledon etc. Sure, his first actual job was at Sligo, but how long was he there? Martin O'Neill's first managerial post was at Grantham Town, followed by Shepshed Charterhouse FC. Are you saying they, or Non-League Football, "produced" him?

As for the EL being on the same level as the SPL, that's laughable. It may be that the top couple of EL clubs might be on a par with the bottom couple of SPL clubs, but they don't even come close to e.g. Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen, never mind Celtic - recent UEFA Finalists, or Rangers - CL Group competitors.
Compare the revenues, stadia, trophies, salaries, international signings etc. When Claudio Caniggia signs for the EL equivalent of Rangers or Dundee, or Henrik Larsson for the EL's Celtic, let me know - I'll be over to watch.

As for your best U-21 players being in the EL, I'm sure that is true. But is it because the EL has improved sufficiently to keep these youngsters from being lured to England, or is it because English clubs are now signing young players from every country in the world, so that even the best of young Irish players don't get a look in? Scott Carson is currently the England U-21 keeper. Last season he was hardly Liverpool's third choice, behind Reyna, Dudek and Kirkland.
Of course, you may well be right that regular EL football may be a better schooling than English Academies. But having received this schooling, how many are pushing on beyond the EL, either in England or further afield?

Anyhow, I'll agree with you on one point, the ROI should be able to put out three teams to beat Cyprus. But if Stan couldn't manage it with his first choice, how on earth could he do it with his third choice?

"As for the EL being on the same level as the SPL, that's laughable."

Well you got one thing right - the EL is much better then that joke of a league (minus moneybags celtic and rangers). I'd say Monaghan United would probably take Hearts...

[Mr A]

The SPL is fully professional, has vastly superior budgets, stadia and profile, even if you take out the big three. Some of our clubs might well give SPL clubs a game of it, but we've a long way to go to catch up with them in many, many ways.

[bigmac]

Compare the revenues, stadia, trophies, salaries, international signings etc. When Claudio Caniggia signs for the EL equivalent of Rangers or Dundee, or Henrik Larsson for the EL's Celtic, let me know - I'll be over to watch.

So just because a league has silly money to sign has-been internationals it's automatically better? Is the J-League in Japan that good? Or all those middle eastern leagues that pay megabucks? Henrik Larsson is the Kevin Doyle of Scottish Football, but how many players have failed in England only to be a success in Scotland, or been a success in Scotland yet failed when they transferred out? Chris Sutton, Liam Miller, Jean-Alain Boumsong.

Not sure what you mean by trophies, we have 3 in the EL, same as most leagues? What external trophies have scottish clubs won recently?

The most recent comparison between Irish and Scottish football resulted in an embarrassment for the Scottish team, albeit a first division team, but one with larger revenues, stadium, salaries etc.. Nobody can be sure of how Irish teams would do, but it is accepted by people who follow EL week in week out that the top teams in the EL would be more than on a par with the bottom clubs in the SPL and I think that they'd definitely be mid table rather than relegation fodder.

As for European results, Scotland's ranking of the 12th best league in Europe would majorly drop without the annual input of Rangers and Celtic. Over the 5 year period prior to this one, they have earned over 100 co-efficient points between them. With 4 teams in Europe, this means that those 2 teams provided almost 85% of the ranking points annually! Take the average of the other teams in Europe and the SPL would be closer to 30th position. A corollary of the Derry victory could well be that the SPL will lose a European spot in a few years.

[ciaraa]

The SPL is fully professional, has vastly superior budgets, stadia and profile, even if you take out the big three. Some of our clubs might well give SPL clubs a game of it, but we've a long way to go to catch up with them in many, many ways.

I know what yer trying to say G H but having watched both (scottish albeit only on tv) i cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can say that (minus celtic/rangers) scottish football is of a better quality then irish. it SHOULD BE for all the cash and nice stadia but the fact of the matter is ... it aint!!
Apart from Kilkenny and possibly Monaghan, all EL teams would be more then a match for any scottish team - and all our Premier teams (...maybe not bray actually) would dismantle any scottish side. In fairness even the northern league (Irish league??) teams would give scottish sides a game. Im not talking up our league (as it has a lot of limitations) but pointing out how ridiculously overrated the scottish league is!

[bigmac]

Apart from Kilkenny and possibly Monaghan, all EL teams would be more then a match for any scottish team - and all our Premier teams (...maybe not bray actually) would dismantle any scottish side.

Ah hold on a minute there, it's overrated, but let's not get carried away here. The argument is generally over how much better the SPL is compared to the EL, and the arguments range from miles better, to not better at all. I don't think any EL sides would be expecting to dismantle a scottish side to be fair. Overall, it is a better league, just not by the light years that most Sellthick customers would have you believe.

[EalingGreen]

Fair enough, you've persuaded me, the EL is on a par with the SPL (the Old Firm's money aside), Monaghan Utd would finish in 2nd place above Hearts, Chris Sutton was lucky to play for England, the Jean-Alain Boumsong who was in the French World Cup squad in July is not the J-A B who played for Rangers and Kevin Doyle is going to finish his career with a swansong for Barcelona in the Champions League Final.

Now can somebody please address the points I made regarding the original topic of this thread, namely, if the present ROI squad is so over-rated, over-paid and over there (in England), so that a team drawn from the EL would do better, why aren't there scouts from all over the world flocking to sign these EL players?
After all, they'd cost a fraction of the price of the dopes they're replacing.
Unless, of course, it's anti-EL prejudice (of the type ascribed by one poster to Steve Coppell, one of the few coaches who has actually put his money where his mouth is).
And while we're at it, could someone please explain to me why Brian Kerr didn't pick more EL players.

In the meantime, whilst I'm waiting, I'll put my mind to figuring out just what has changed to cause a squad of players who were good enough to come within a game or two of qualifying for the World Cup Finals in the summer suddenly to become so unutterably crap.
Bird Flu? Global Warming? Islamic Militancy?

[OneRedArmy]

Fair enough, you've persuaded me, the EL is on a par with the SPL (the Old Firm's money aside), Monaghan Utd would finish in 2nd place above Hearts, Chris Sutton was lucky to play for England, the Jean-Alain Boumsong who was in the French World Cup squad in July is not the J-A B who played for Rangers and Kevin Doyle is going to finish his career with a swansong for Barcelona in the Champions League Final.

Now can somebody please address the points I made regarding the original topic of this thread, namely, if the present ROI squad is so over-rated, over-paid and over there (in England), so that a team drawn from the EL would do better, why aren't there scouts from all over the world flocking to sign these EL players?
After all, they'd cost a fraction of the price of the dopes they're replacing.
Unless, of course, it's anti-EL prejudice (of the type ascribed by one poster to Steve Coppell, one of the few coaches who has actually put his money where his mouth is).
And while we're at it, could someone please explain to me why Brian Kerr didn't pick more EL players.

In the meantime, whilst I'm waiting, I'll put my mind to figuring out just what has changed to cause a squad of players who were good enough to come within a game or two of qualifying for the World Cup Finals in the summer suddenly to become so unutterably crap.
Bird Flu? Global Warming? Islamic Militancy?

As you said in your first post,you didn't see the Cyprus game and are presumably not a regular Ireland watcher (assuming you are watching Norn Iron at the same time), nor have you any experience of the EL in recent times.

Why don't you go away, inform yourself, we'll take your points away and we can all discuss more then.

Or possibly, since you've already made your mind up on the limited amount of info available to you, why don't we just agree to disagree.

[bigmac]

Chris Sutton was lucky to play for England

yep

the Jean-Alain Boumsong who was in the French World Cup squad in July is not the J-A B who played for Rangers

It is, but it's also the same J-A B who played for Newcastle and made Andy O'Brien look good

In the meantime, whilst I'm waiting, I'll put my mind to figuring out just what has changed to cause a squad of players who were good enough to come within a game or two of qualifying for the World Cup Finals in the summer suddenly to become so unutterably crap.

Shels and Cork were within a game or two of qualifying for the Champions League group stages - means absolutely nothing because that "game or two" was at a level above where they were capable of playing.
The Irish team does not have an abundance of quality - since they beat Holland in 2001, they have beaten only Iran, Saudi Arabia, Georgia, Albania, Cyprus and the Faroe Islands competitively. They were a game or two away from a playoff against Turkey, not a game that they would have had any confident expectation of winning.
This team did not "suddenly become unutterably crap", they've been heading that way for a long time!
People here are not advocating that the team be replaced wholeheartedly with El players, but they are certainly suggesting that EL players could be brought in to play in positions they are playing in weekly, rather than average English based players playing out of position. The point is that a centre-half who has been playing all season would be a better choice than a player who hasn't played a game yet. A holding midfield player from Cork is better in that role than a left winger from Wigan. A top EL keeper would be better than a keeper playing at relegation fodder 3rd tier English football.
You mention players in the EL who had a chance and didn't make it at the top level in England. Why is the squad now heading towards picking players who had a chance and didn't make it but opted to drop several divisions in England? What's the difference? Are you going to argue that the standard of Brighton Hove Albion is higher than the standard of Derry, Cork, Shels, Drogs?

[EalingGreen]

As you said in your first post,you didn't see the Cyprus game and are presumably not a regular Ireland watcher (assuming you are watching Norn Iron at the same time), nor have you any experience of the EL in recent times.

Why don't you go away, inform yourself, we'll take your points away and we can all discuss more then.

Or possibly, since you've already made your mind up on the limited amount of info available to you, why don't we just agree to disagree.

ORA, I can see how fans of EL clubs, disgusted at the display in Nicosia (I've since seen "highlights", btw) and bearing in mind a raise in EL standards, might suggest that the players be replaced by EL players. That's football for you.

But as an outside observer, I wondered why, if EL players are good enough to play at international level, foreign scouts haven't been snapping them up to play in bigger, more professional Leagues. After all, the exploits of Derry and Shelbourne, plus the success of Kevin Doyle, should have alerted them to any bargains to be had.
Further, I wondered why Brian Kerr, uniquely placed to assess EL players' suitability for international football, rarely picked EL players.
You can slag me off all you like (doesn't bother me in the slightest), but no-one has as yet addressed these simple questions.

My own view is that if there is a problem with the present squad seriously underperforming, when they ought to be good enough to beat Cyprus with relative ease, then the first solution should not be to rush to replace the players with substitutes of debateable suitability, rather it should be to look at what has changed during the last 12 months, when roughly the same bunch of players were performing rather better.
It seems to me that the problem lies with Staunton, so that a wholesale clearout of the players as well as the manager would risk "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".
After all, it works the other way that a new manager can quickly improve a group of underperforming players, as Walter Smith has shown with Scotland, or Martin O'Neill at Villa.

For further evidence to support my theory, you need only look to the NI team, which has players drawn from a similar background to that of Staunton's (though not quite so good, imo), who have proven that with the right leadership, it is quite possible for an Irish team of players from the various English divisions, to compete respectably at international level (unless it's against Iceland ).

[Soper]

You seem to think that every player in every league in the world that isn't one of the big European leagues leaves once they are good enough.There are plenty of players in Norwegian teams, Swedish teams that are good enough for the Premiership/Championship etc, but don't sign for any number of reasons.And I don't just mean from the likes of Rosenberg, Aik.I mean clubs like IK Start, who were blessed to get past Drogheda.

[EalingGreen]

A top EL keeper would be better than a keeper playing at relegation fodder 3rd tier English football.
You mention players in the EL who had a chance and didn't make it at the top level in England. Why is the squad now heading towards picking players who had a chance and didn't make it but opted to drop several divisions in England? What's the difference? Are you going to argue that the standard of Brighton Hove Albion is higher than the standard of Derry, Cork, Shels, Drogs?

Although I've seen quite a bit of clubs at Brighton's level, I'm not familiar with EL clubs, so I'll reserve comment as to how they compare.

However, your citing of Wayne Henderson to support your case is an interesting one.
Just as Given & Kenny play at a v.high level, NI have a similarly well-qualified top two in Taylor and Carroll. However, Sanchez has decided upon Michael Ingham of Wrexham, a division below Henderson, as his clear third choice.
This is in preference* to top young IL keepers such as Glentoran's Elliott Morris and Linfield's Alan Mannus. Sanchez is aware of what they can both do, since Morris has both "B" and U-21 Caps, and Mannus actually played for the senior team during a Caribbean Tour soon after Sanchez took over.
Personally, I suspect Sanchez may be influenced by the fact that after starting his career at Cliftonville, Ingham then had a spell at Sunderland (inc. when they were in the Premiership). When that didn't work out, he elected to drop down the English Divisions rather than move back to an IL club.
This is in contrast to Morris, who moved back to the IL, after he failed to make the grade with WBA.
Despite being a Glens fan, I certainly wouldn't argue with Sanchez choice, since Ingham has done very well whenever he's been called upon and everyone speaks very highly of his dedication to his profession.

* - Ingham is also preferred over Doncaster's young keeper Blayney, Alan Fettis of Bury (25 caps) and Aidan Davison of Colchester in the Championship (the latter two because of age)

P.S. Just remembered, Ingham is also preferred over Pat Jennings Jr. of, ahem, Derry City...

[Soper]

Wow, he is preffered over Derry's reserve keeper?Yipideedoodaa

[bohs til i die]

So we've had the token gestures of calling eL players up to the squad when nothing at stake but with 9 players out injured Staunton prefers reserve team & lower english league players to the eL. Ireland lose 5-2.

Says a lot when Henderson playing lower League One in england gets in as 2nd choice keeper when the likes of Mick Devine has 2/3 of his league games as clean sheets this season & performed very well in europe in last few years.

Andy O'Brien plays reserve Premiership football & even starts the game.

Alan O'Brien another reserve Premiership player comes off the bench.

The championship in England is a cut above the EL. Henderson played last season at Brighton.

[Schumi]

as an outside observer, I wondered why, if EL players are good enough to play at international level, foreign scouts haven't been snapping them up to play in bigger, more professional Leagues.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the EL is full of Premiership, La Liga or Serie A standard players but neither was the Ireland team that played against Cyprus. To follow up your point above, no one has snapped up Andy O'Brien to play at a higher level than Portsmouth's reserves. An EL XI isn't going to happen, and nor should it but I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that one or two would have been out of place.

[Dodge]

Thats the bottom line for me Schumi. Some el players are the 3rd/4th/5th/5th best players available in their positions, yet some are still overlooked.

[EalingGreen]

You seem to think that every player in every league in the world that isn't one of the big European leagues leaves once they are good enough.

Where did I say that?

I just think that the better teams, in the better Leagues, tend to have better players.

Of course, there are occasional exceptions such as Larsson when he was at Celtic and there may well be similar exceptions in the EL, but I still feel that they are just that: exceptions.

Btw, I don't come on here just to have a pop at the EL. When I lived in Belfast I was a regular supporter of IL football and since moving to London I've watched a lot of lower League football.
In fact, I heartily dislike the way so-called "smaller" clubs get overlooked at the expense of the "big" Premiership clubs - and I say that as a lifelong Spurs fan.

[EalingGreen]

Wow, he is preffered over Derry's reserve keeper?Yipideedoodaa

That PJ comment was just a wee "dig".

Would you like to address my main point which was that Ingham of the English "4th." Division is regularly preferred over Mannus and Morris, the top two IL keepers, by Sanchez, a manager who started out at Sligo Rovers.

[Soper]

I've always thought that Sanchez thinks that both the EL and IL, in particular the EL are the same as they were when he was manager.Idon't think he can comprehend the improvement made, particularly in the full time set ups in the EL

[OneRedArmy]

That PJ comment was just a wee "dig".

Would you like to address my main point which was that Ingham of the English "4th." Division is regularly preferred over Mannus and Morris, the top two IL keepers, by Sanchez, a manager who started out at Sligo Rovers.

You are opening up and Irish League vs Eircom League debate, do we really want to go down that road? Whatever about the relative strengths of the Blues and Glens, I get more exercise putting out the washing that Mannus or Morris do against the likes of Loughall and Limavady.