FAI Seeking New League Member

**Ash** · 02/10/2006, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Mr_T

They have till 31st October to make their case, including an 1 hour presetation to the IAG. Its a bit like the episode of Father Ted when they are on the plane which is going to crash and they have to write an essay saying why they should get a parachute!

And it'll end up with the Waterford rep showing a picture he drew of of himself
in the nude with a dog, claimed to have misunderstood what was going on

**pineapple stu** · 02/10/2006, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Holy fcuk - the CSO can't even spell Laois !!

How seriously embarassing is that.......!

There was a spelling purge back towards the start of the 20th century, I think, which tidied up a lot of Irish spellings. Other examples include Caoimhgh�n, which is now Caoimh�n, and L�ghbhadh, which is now L�. So Laoighis is probably the older spelling. Though that doesn't explain why they still use it. Maybe it's the official spelling, but just never used.

Would like to see a Tipp or Kerry team join the league myself, purely for selfish travel reasons, I suppose!

Why are Cliftonville being mentioned?! Am I misisng something here?

Kildare, incidentally, aren't the failure they're being made out to be here. They're just a victim of the current league environment. They started out strongly and just missed out on the play-offs for the first three years. In doing so, they ran up big debts of close to E200,000. Last year, they made the biggest trading profit in the league - E60k - but paid the price with a reduced budget and a similar drop in team form. I assume their plan is to clear the debts, get back to solvency as quick as possible and then increase their playing budget so they're on a break-even level. Unfortunately, in this league, with the FAI's ineptitiude with regards UEFA Licencing, it can be very hard to succeed without trading recklessly, as many clubs have found out in the recent past.

**bigmac** · 02/10/2006, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Mr_T

The remaining 50% is for things like infrastructure, long term planning, youth development marketing etc. Clubs were all invited to a seminar on 7th September and were told the basis on which these marks were going to be allocated and what they would be expected to submit as a minimum.

Do you or anyone else have the details of this so? I've never heard of anything beyond the sketchiest outline of where the marks were going when related to these criteria. Why do the clubs need to present their case anyway, should the FAI not be aware of the situation in each club without allowing them to stand up and exaggerate their plans or their ability to execute those plans? Will there be any check on what the clubs present or will another club like Dublin City be allowed to get away with claiming that they'll average crowds of 1500 at their home matches?

For clubs towards the bottom of the Premier or the top of the First, it is by no means

Originally Posted by Mr_T

a bit mad for any club rep to be saying they don't know whats happening at this stage

to say otherwise is akin to saying that a student sitting their leaving cert knows what they'll be doing next year. Yes there's a bunch that is fairly sure they're going to get the points they want, and there's a bunch that realise they haven't a hope in hell of getting into medicine, but there are a lot out there who will be on the verge of getting the points they need, but could equally end up repeating.
At the moment there are quite a few clubs in this position, and the lack of any crystal clear guidelines does not inspire confidence in the process. It is non-transparent and the (justifiable) worry is that the FAI will tailor the marking scheme to cherry-pick their preferred clubs. The point that the WUFC rep was making is that at the moment, the club has no idea what division they are going to be in next year. IMO that is a completely valid statement to make and it makes it very difficult to attempt to plan for next season (players, contracts etc) when nobody knows whether we'll be travelling to Derry or Ballybofey, (or both).

**Poor Student** · 02/10/2006, 12:31 PM

I think they should add no members and retain the 11 team Premier Division. They'll be reducing it to a 10 team league the following season with three straight relegation places. The death of Dublin City could allow a less radical more incremental change.

**pineapple stu** · 02/10/2006, 12:34 PM

You can't have an 11-team Premier next season. Ollie would kick up a stink about whichever club is given the last day of the season off. Plus, you can't possibly have a club idle on the last day.

**monkey magic** · 02/10/2006, 12:46 PM

going by the cso figures there mayo is by far and away the largest population center in the state without a loi presence.. having said that a kerry or tipp team would also be welcome.. mullingar is just stupid.. not only do you have athlone town already there from the same county but longford is as close or even closer to mullingar... and with the population of our two counties being what it is, sure ya might as well let in another dublin team as do that

**NY Hoop** · 02/10/2006, 1:18 PM

According to today's papers it looks like the 11 in the premier and the winners of the first (Rovers or Galway) will make up the new premier. Which is the way it should be.

Magicme you know I speak the truth!

KOH

**Conor H** · 02/10/2006, 1:22 PM

So all the fuss about next years changes are for what?That can't be wright.I can't see the premier not having both Rovers and Galway next year.

**Dodge** · 02/10/2006, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by NY Hoop

According to today's papers it looks like the 11 in the premier and the winners of the first (Rovers or Galway) will make up the new premier. Which is the way it should be.

No ****ing way should it be. Waterford and Bray have been down right awful this year and now they now they don�t have to improve we�re going to see disgraceful mismatches. At least one club must be relegated

**Conor H** · 02/10/2006, 1:25 PM

I'd be surpsied if Waterford and Bray we're in it next year.Rovers,Galway and Dundalk all offer more.

**Poor Student** · 02/10/2006, 1:26 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

No ****ing way should it be. Waterford and Bray have been down right awful this year and now they now they don’t have to improve we’re going to see disgraceful mismatches. At least one club must be relegated

One of them will be subjected to participating in possibly the most useless tie in the history of football, the playoff to decide who is ranked 12th or 14th in this season's league rankings.

**pineapple stu** · 02/10/2006, 1:28 PM

Originally Posted by NY Hoop

According to today's papers it looks like the 11 in the premier and the winners of the first (Rovers or Galway) will make up the new premier. Which is the way it should be.

Magicme you know I speak the truth!

KOH

I assume Waterford/Bray would still play-off with Rovers/Galway/Dundalk?

I'd be sceptical about that being the case, mainly for Conor H's reasons. Though meedless to say, it makes sense. It's unfortunate that Bray and Waterford were so poor in the year Dublin City went broke and took the automatic relegation spot, but you can't relegate teams because they're rubbish if they did finish above teh required number of teams in the league.

**NY Hoop** · 02/10/2006, 1:32 PM

Dont think there's any playoffs this year. I know its not right that WUFC and Bray stay up if they are that awful but its not based on on pitch performances unfortunately.

No chance of more than one First Division club going up IMO.

KOH

**dcfcsteve** · 02/10/2006, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

broadly agreed about the liklyhood, I just heard a whisper they were considering applying especially now Dongal Celtic are in the Premier and will take from their already poor fanbase.

if people don't want to watch Cliftonville in the IL, why would they want to watch them in the EL ? I suspect the small unsavoury element within the Cliftonville support doesn't help them attract crowds (and would be a big part in my view on whether or not I personally wanted them in the EL).

Also - Donegal Celtic and Cliftonville cater to different parts of the City, abnd Cliftonville have been established for much much longer. I can't see many 'ville fans past, present, or future deciding to suppoort Donegal Celtic instead now. So there shouldn't really be any lap-over.

Originally Posted by Roverstillidie

but its silly to argue them out and in the same post say how good DCFC were for the league. the history is different but the principle is the same

What principle ?? Derry City were a defunct Irish club located on the border who's own association consistently refused to let them back in. Hence - the only option they had was to look to south of the border for a return to senior football.

Cliftonville, meanwhile, are an existing club located deep inside Northern Ireland and who not only have no real problems with their association, but even have high level representatiion within that organisation (Jim Boyce, IFA President). Where is the similarity, let alone the principle, in all of that ?!?

**Mr A** · 02/10/2006, 1:44 PM

I don't understand why people still beive that the winner of the first division will automatically get in the premier. It'll help a clubs cause to be sure, but remember that this year's ranking are based not just on the league but on the cup too, meaning that Rovers will be ranked miles ahead of Dundalk and especially Dundalk regardless of what they do for the rest of the season. In any case Rovers have a far better 4 year record than either. The only way Rovers won't go up is if they are heavily punished for/totally f-up off the filed matters.

Galway are the ones who most need to win the division, as Dundalk just haven't a hope of going up and Rovers are up anyway.

And according to the FAI document there will certainly be 12 in the premier next year.

**Ronnie** · 02/10/2006, 1:55 PM

And if no club joins the First does that mean a 9 team division, playing 32 games?

After all that is known about the difficulty, would strong junior clubs really want to risk it?

**Mr_T** · 02/10/2006, 3:02 PM

Originally Posted by bigmac

Do you or anyone else have the details of this so? I've never heard of anything beyond the sketchiest outline of where the marks were going when related to these criteria. Why do the clubs need to present their case anyway, should the FAI not be aware of the situation in each club without allowing them to stand up and exaggerate their plans or their ability to execute those plans? Will there be any check on what the clubs present or will another club like Dublin City be allowed to get away with claiming that they'll average crowds of 1500 at their home matches?

The clubs all have details.

Originally Posted by bigmac

For clubs towards the bottom of the Premier or the top of the First, it is by no means

to say otherwise is akin to saying that a student sitting their leaving cert knows what they'll be doing next year. Yes there's a bunch that is fairly sure they're going to get the points they want, and there's a bunch that realise they haven't a hope in hell of getting into medicine, but there are a lot out there who will be on the verge of getting the points they need, but could equally end up repeating.
At the moment there are quite a few clubs in this position, and the lack of any crystal clear guidelines does not inspire confidence in the process. It is non-transparent and the (justifiable) worry is that the FAI will tailor the marking scheme to cherry-pick their preferred clubs. The point that the WUFC rep was making is that at the moment, the club has no idea what division they are going to be in next year. IMO that is a completely valid statement to make and it makes it very difficult to attempt to plan for next season (players, contracts etc) when nobody knows whether we'll be travelling to Derry or Ballybofey, (or both).

If thats all the Waterford rep said then of course its true, but if you accept the principle of clubs being selected on grounds other than on the field as the new proposals......propose then theres not much else can be done. The non football criteria are fairly specific from what I've heard, adn while some of the points are allocated for plans - strategic plans, business plans etc which clubs should have - they will have to be realistic, which is why clubs have to come down for 1 hour sessions and present and defend them.

Originally Posted by Ash

And it'll end up with the Waterford rep showing a picture he drew of of himself in the nude with a dog, claimed to have misunderstood what was going on )

Already done that gag in the original post Ash!

**harps1954** · 02/10/2006, 3:24 PM

Originally Posted by Galway Harps

I don't understand why people still beive that the winner of the first division will automatically get in the premier. It'll help a clubs cause to be sure, but remember that this year's ranking are based not just on the league but on the cup too, meaning that Rovers will be ranked miles ahead of Dundalk and especially Dundalk regardless of what they do for the rest of the season. In any case Rovers have a far better 4 year record than either. The only way Rovers won't go up is if they are heavily punished for/totally f-up off the filed matters.

Galway are the ones who most need to win the division, as Dundalk just haven't a hope of going up and Rovers are up anyway.

And according to the FAI document there will certainly be 12 in the premier next year.

Exactly right Galwayharps. Galway really do need to win the First Division to have a better chance of getting into the top 12. Galway fans are really fooling themselves if they think that themselves and Rovers will be in the Premier next season no matter what.

Anyway, based on the FAI's Criteria of scoring 500 points "on the pitch", this is how the 21 clubs would feature if the season was brought to a halt today. This is just a snapshot taken as of today. However, if Galway failed to win the First Division, they would actually fall to 14th position. There is still 500 points to play for "off the pitch" which is why the presentations that each club make to the IAG is still vitally important.

Finally, I think it is fair to say that the top 8 clubs on the table below are "almost certain" to form part of the new Premier Division next season, with UCD, Waterford and Sligo all looking "fairly certain" at the moment. I think it is also fair to say that the clubs in positions 16-21 are "almost certain" to be part of the First Division next season. That means, that one of the clubs in positions 12-15 at present will get the last place on offer. That means if Bray finish last in the Premier and Galway won the first this season, Galway will have to score 24 points (out of 500) more than Bray in the "off the field" criteria to make the last place. I'm not so sure they will. Bray's infastructure is pretty good (as is Galways), their licensing record is good (as is Galways), they never seem to have any financial problems (nor do Galway), so it is difficult to see where Galway will make up the points. One thing is for sure, if Galway don't win the First Division, I think the 12 teams in the new Premier next season will as they are listed below. By the way, the figures in brackets are each teams scores if the season were to end today. Galway's early exits in each Cup compeition could come back to haunt them while I don't think Dundalk have any chance of being in the Premier next year - even if they won the First Division.

1 Shelbourne (493)
2 Cork City (467)
3 Derry City (460)
4 Bohmians (443)
5 Longford Town (437)
6 Drogheda United (430)
7 St. Patrick's Athletic (407)
8 Shamrock Rovers (370)
9 UCD (363)
10 Waterford United (353)
11 Sligo Rovers (340)
12 Bray Wanderers (313)
13 Galway United (290)
14 Finn Harps (283)
15 Dundalk (257)
16 Cobh Ramblers (250)
17 Limerick (247)
18 Kildare County (240)
19 Kilkenny City (187)
20 Athlone Town (187)
21 Monaghan United (183)

**dcfcsteve** · 02/10/2006, 3:53 PM

How many points for a win and how many for a draw in that system - is it the same as normal competiiton (i.e. 3 and 1) ?

Do Cup replays count the drawn leg previously ?

**Mr A** · 02/10/2006, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

How many points for a win and how many for a draw in that system - is it the same as normal competiiton (i.e. 3 and 1) ?

Do Cup replays count the drawn leg previously ?

I think this is based on the FAI scoring system as outlined in their documentation on the merger. There's 200 points for this season and 300 for the previous 4 years.