Cliftonville or Donegal Celtic for Eircom League?

[Not Brazil]

dcfcsteve,

"Would that be the same RUC who stated publically that there were no security or safety issues in using the Brandywell in 1973 ? Hobson's Choice indeed - though only when it suits the Irish League Management Committee it would seem..."

The issue was presented before the Irish League Management Committee and a democratic vote of member clubs taken.

"Really ? Is that why their club voted for a return to the Brandywell then ???"

I was talking about the supporters who had no bus to travel home on after it was hijacked and burnt out.

"For the record - yes, a lot has actually changed with the "security issues" outside the Brandywell in 30 years."

Not my experience in 2005. Do the PSNI police the environs of The Brandywell?

"There were never incidents of supporters or their vehicles being selected for attack in Derry's Irish League days (the Balymena bus that got hijacked was empty at the time, and was merely taken along with anything else they could find to use as barricades)"

There was in 2005. Supporters buses exiting the The Brandywell had to endure a lengthy rerouting after Linfield's visit for the Setanta fixture this year too.

"I even recall a hand grenade being thrown into a certain ground 15 or so years after Derry City were forced out of the league. I wonder what penalties that club were forced to suffer for such clear 'security issues' regarding their stadium..."

So do I.

Having been sat in the stand the night the blast bombs were thrown over the wall at Windsor near the Cliftonville fans, my abiding memory was the massive cheer that went up from those very same fans because they were under the impression it was the IRA attacking Linfield fans!!

Should Linfield Football Club be held similarly responsible for two republican attempts to bomb supporters exiting Windsor Park during International fixtures in the mid 80's too?

You will be aware that Derry City fans entered and exited Windsor Park without any hint of trouble for the Setanta Cup fixture.

UInfortunately Linfield supporters are not afforded the same luxury in the envirions of The Brandywell.

I restate that this has nothing to do with Derry City Football Club.

[dcfcsteve]

"Would that be the same RUC who stated publically that there were no security or safety issues in using the Brandywell in 1973 ? Hobson's Choice indeed - though only when it suits the Irish League Management Committee it would seem..."

The issue was presented before the Irish League Management Committee and a democratic vote of member clubs taken.

True, but nothing to do with the point I made. The RUC recommended against using Solitude, with the Irish League Management Committee took as advice they had to follow. But when the same RUC said there were no problems with the Brandywell.......?

"Really ? Is that why their club voted for a return to the Brandywell then ???"

I was talking about the supporters who had no bus to travel home on after it was hijacked and burnt out.

With all due respect you were talking sh!t. It was the team bus that got hijacked and burnt, not the supporters bus, so you clearly don't even know what you're talking about. And no-one had to walk anywhere, as DCFc arranged alternative transport. Still - keep convincing yourself that you were there as an eye-witness reporter back in the day Not Brazil....

"For the record - yes, a lot has actually changed with the "security issues" outside the Brandywell in 30 years."

Not my experience in 2005. Do the PSNI police the environs of The Brandywell?

Please read what someone says before you jump in and respond to it. The Police did service the environs of the Brandywell back in the 70's - they don't now. That is clearly a major and obvious change. There were never any incidents of supporters being targetted outside the Brandywell back in the 70's, whereas sadly there was one last year. That is clearly also a change from previous times. So things have clearly changed. For 99.9% of circumstances, that change is a positive one. I say that not as a political statement, but as a societal one - that in this day and age police aren't required inside a football stadium 100% of the time, not outside 99.9% of the time.

"There were never incidents of supporters or their vehicles being selected for attack in Derry's Irish League days (the Balymena bus that got hijacked was empty at the time, and was merely taken along with anything else they could find to use as barricades)"

There was in 2005. Supporters buses exiting the The Brandywell had to endure a lengthy rerouting after Linfield's visit for the Setanta fixture this year too.

Again - PLEASE read what someone says before you bury your foot in your mouth. What part of "Irish League" in my above statement did you struggle to comprehend......?

"I even recall a hand grenade being thrown into a certain ground 15 or so years after Derry City were forced out of the league. I wonder what penalties that club were forced to suffer for such clear 'security issues' regarding their stadium..."

So do I.

And what sanctions occured for that undeniably serious security issue inside an Irish League ground....? And how did that compare to the treatment of the Brandywell ? I could mention numerous other serious outbreaks of public disorder in IL grounds - as recently as last year - that have gone without penalty against those Sstadiums as well. Strange, huh....?

Having been sat in the stand the night the blast bombs were thrown over the wall at Windsor near the Cliftonville fans, my abiding memory was the massive cheer that went up from those very same fans because they were under the impression it was the IRA attacking Linfield fans!!

And that has exactly what to do with the Brandywell ?

Should Linfield Football Club be held similarly responsible for two republican attempts to bomb supporters exiting Windsor Park during International fixtures in the mid 80's too?

Should Derry City have been held responsible for the hijacking of an empty visiting team's bus in the middle of a game by people unconnected to the match, and forced out of senior football because of it - even against the advice of the official security experts.....? Touche.....

[Not Brazil]

dcfcsteve,

"True, but nothing to do with the point I made. The RUC recommended against using Solitude, with the Irish League Management Committee took as advice they had to follow. But when the same RUC said there were no problems with the Brandywell.......?"

The fact is that member clubs of the Irish League made the decision democratically, based on ALL evidence placed before them.

"With all due respect you were talking sh!t. It was the team bus that got hijacked and burnt, not the supporters bus"

Oh right - that's ok then!

"There were never any incidents of supporter vehicles being targetted outside the Brandywell back in the 70's"

Are you 100% sure of that?

"And what sanctions occured for that undeniably serious security issue inside an Irish League ground....? And how did that compare to the treatment of the Brandywell ? I could mention numerous other serious outbreaks of public disorder in IL grounds - as recently as last year - that have gone without penalty against those Stadiums as well. Strange, huh....?"

Did anyone put the matter before the Irish League Management Committee for a vote on sanctions?

What incidents went "without penalty" last year?

"And that has exactly what to do with the Brandywell ?"

Erm - it was you who introduced the whataboutery about other grounds.

"Should Derry City have been held responsible for the hijacking of an empty visiting team's bus in the middle of a game by people unconnected to the match, and forced out of senior football because of it - even against the advice of the official security experts.....?"

Obviously the majority of member clubs in the Irish League took a democratic decision that it was unsafe to visit the Brandywell.

Derry City were not victims if the Irish League so much as victims of rioting local thugs who made other clubs feel unable to play fixtures at The Brandywell in safety.

Would you have any official details of the RUC "advice" on the matter?

By the way, Derry City LEFT the Irish league.

Following the Ballymena bus incident, it was decreed that it was unsafe to play at The Brandywell. As you well know, Derry City played "home" games at Coleraine FC after that.

I fully understand that the financial implications of this meant that Derry City ultimately had to RESIGN their position in the League.

So, in summary:

Following a serious incident at The Brandywell involving an IL's team bus, Irish League Clubs democratically voted that it was unsafe to play fixtures at The Brandywell.

Arrangements were made for Derry City to play matches at Coleraine.

Given the resultant loss of revenue, Derry City resigned from the IL.

I have a large degree of sympathy with Derry City over the matter, but I resent the notion that a conspiracy of oppression existed against the Club.

Decisions were taken democratically.

We have witnessed that major security issues for certain visiting clubs still exist around The Brandywell to this day.

For the third time now, this is not the fault of Derry City Football Club.

I wish the Club continued success in the Eirecom, and look forward to the day when I can revisit The Brandywell with my son to support our club, without feeling intimidated by locals attacking our buses, or having to endure late night, lengthy, cross country (quite literally) jaunts in order to avoid same.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Not Brazil -I'm not doubting the inconvenience you were put to in your attempts to get back east from Derry. But was the issue that led the cops to take ye on a country spin not that there were gougers on the outskirts of Derry on the flyovers of whatever ye call the Derry Belfast road waiting for Linfield supporters to come by?

It's disgraceful it happened but it's no more the fault of Derry City FC (or Derry City BC for that matter) than it is Newry, Dundalk or Drogheda borough councils fault when some fool decides to put a satchel by the train tracks and phone in a bomb scare.

[David]

Not Brazil -I'm not doubting the inconvenience you were put to in your attempts to get back east from Derry. But was the issue that led the cops to take ye on a country spin not that there were gougers on the outskirts of Derry on the flyovers of whatever ye call the Derry Belfast road waiting for Linfield supporters to come by?

It's disgraceful it happened but it's no more the fault of Derry City FC (or Derry City BC for that matter) than it is Newry, Dundalk or Drogheda borough councils fault when some fool decides to put a satchel by the train tracks and phone in a bomb scare.

As far as I know (we were not told much on the night) it was thugs in the vicinity of the Brandywell that were the problem that night. Numerous times now Not Brazil has said that this was not the fault of Derry City FC but the fact remains that it is unsafe for Linfield FC to play at that ground. That being the case today given the current political climate, I dread to think what it would have been like in the early 70's when the troubles were at their height.

[BohsPartisan]

Portsmouth V Newcastle?
Celta Vigo V Majorca?
AC Milan V Palermo?
FC Nantes V Marseille?
Considerable distances involved in all of these, far greater than Larne V Cork

[-lamb-]

so sorry for having a different point of view steve.......

i thought people were still allowed their own opinions. obviously i made a mistake.
btw. "mediocrity"? that doesn't even make any sense unless you've missed out some sort of context to it.
btw. pt2. larne isn't in south antrim.

[-lamb-]

Portsmouth V Newcastle?
Celta Vigo V Majorca?
AC Milan V Palermo?
FC Nantes V Marseille?
Considerable distances involved in all of these, far greater than Larne V Cork

of course they are and they most likely also pay a small fortune to go to those (higher standard) games, which i, as it stands, don't.
you seriously cannot argue that an ail will either:
1) cost more in terms of money and time for the average fan.
or
2) mean more missed games for the average fan.

[dcfcsteve]

so sorry for having a different point of view steve.......

i thought people were still allowed their own opinions. obviously i made a mistake.
btw. "mediocrity"? that doesn't even make any sense unless you've missed out some sort of context to it.
btw. pt2. larne isn't in south antrim.

Mediocre is saying you don't want to be part of an all-island league - arguably the best chance both leagues on this island have to relaunch themslves and attract decent TV coverage and sponsorship - because the distances involved require more than 90mins in a car. Let's all just wallow in our cosy little comfort zones and feck the good of the game.....

So you wouldn't even travel to South Antrim...? Alright - make it a Larne and district league and cut that pesky travelling right down...

Would you grumble about Larne making it to the group stages of a European competition ? After all, that would require international/overseas travel for your fans on average once a month - about the same number of times you'd have to leave God's Ulster in any all-island league.

[David]

Mediocre is saying you don't want to be part of an all-island league - arguably the best chance both leagues on this island have to relaunch themslves and attract decent TV coverage and sponsorship - because the distances involved require more than 90mins in a car. Let's all just wallow in our cosy little comfort zones and feck the good of the game.....

So you wouldn't even travel to South Antrim...? Alright - make it a Larne and district league and cut that pesky travelling right down...

Would you grumble about Larne making it to the group stages of a European competition ? After all, that would require international/overseas travel for your fans on average once a month - about the same number of times you'd have to leave God's Ulster in any all-island league.

As much as it pains me to say so, I am with you on this one.

[BleusAvantTout]

As much as it pains me to say so, I am with you on this one.

I'll see you tomorrow night about that post!!! The expansion of the Shankill candy stripes!!!

[-lamb-]

Mediocre is saying you don't want to be part of an all-island league - arguably the best chance both leagues on this island have to relaunch themslves and attract decent TV coverage and sponsorship - because the distances involved require more than 90mins in a car. Let's all just wallow in our cosy little comfort zones and feck the good of the game.....

Would you grumble about Larne making it to the group stages of a European competition ? After all, that would require international/overseas travel for your fans on average once a month - about the same number of times you'd have to leave God's Ulster in any all-island league.

the first point is arguable. no one knows if it will help or not for sure. it may actually end up worse, especially for the smaller clubs, who knows?
and there is no comfort zone following larne, trust me!
it may work out better for my club, but as i said and you made no reply to, it would almost certainly cost the ordinary fan a lot more money and time to follow their club to the degree most do now. i can't see how you could argue otherwise, and that was my point. i like to go to games with 2 sets of fans and an atmosphere. i have doubts over an ail bringing many more away fans than most il games get now once the novelty has worn off.
can you honestly tell me that having an ail would allow an ordinary il fan (working 9-5, having a family, etc) to get to as many games as they would now?
i just don't see how thats feasible tbh, especially with games not played on a saturday

its easier for fans of the bigger clubs on this island to see nothing but good but i'm sure i'm not the only one who has serious reservations about an ail.
if larne made the top league they'd be small fry in a big pond, if they didn't why would they act like a turkey voting for christmas? its not that i'm against progress, its just that i'm not sure if its the best thing for me as a fan or for the likes of my club (there are plenty of mid-sized clubs like larne in the il). with every good there is always bad.

as for the "once-a-month" thing, please explain that to me as i can't understand your maths.
the chances of larne making that stage are so slim as to be negligible but just saying it were to happen, i think comparing a one off situation like that to the steady constant of league football is not comparing like for like.

the "god's ulster" comment looks like you have come to some conclusion on my politics, which i can honestly say have no relevance to this conversation.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Cliftonville and or Donegal Celtic would never be considered for the Eircom League for several reasons 1/ The have shown no interest in the past few years of joining 2/ Geography.

Berwick Rangers play in Scotland , despite being located in England. This is an interesting parallel with Derry City, playing in the Republic. Both decisions work because they are geographically adjacent to the jurisdictions in which they play. Berwickshire is in Scotland even though Berwick on Tweed is not. The West Bank of the Foyle's hinterland is all in the Republic of Ireland, therefore it makes geographic sense for them to play in the Republic, (as opposed to other clubs located in the Wee North) aside altogether from the other issues that made it necessary. One aspect is it had to be done with the blessing of the IFA which in 1985 was forthcoming and allowed Derry to join the League here. The English FA has no objection to Berwick playing in Scotland. Gretna were in non-League football in England prior to their joining the Scottish League. Again the FA had no objection to Gretna moving north to play their senior football.

The only other club in the Irish League which might qualify on geographical ground would be Newry City , but they are deep in Northern Ireland in terms of distance from the border, compared to Derry's location at The Brandywell. But I don't think we should be talking in such terms. The only way that additional teams from Northern Ireland and the Republic should be playing in the same League would be in a joint IFA/FAI All-Ireland Super League, which is some considerable way off.


Speaking personally I hope one day Institute win the IFA Cup the same season as Derry City win it down here, and we have a cross-border , cross-city derby match in the UEFA Cup. Now that would be special

[David]

I'll see you tomorrow night about that post!!! The expansion of the Shankill candy stripes!!!

Those mythical Shankill candy stripes? Not for me oul' hand.

[Dassa]

Mediocre is saying you don't want to be part of an all-island league - arguably the best chance both leagues on this island have to relaunch themslves and attract decent TV coverage and sponsorship - because the distances involved require more than 90mins in a car. Let's all just wallow in our cosy little comfort zones and feck the good of the game.....

So you wouldn't even travel to South Antrim...? Alright - make it a Larne and district league and cut that pesky travelling right down...

Would you grumble about Larne making it to the group stages of a European competition ? After all, that would require international/overseas travel for your fans on average once a month - about the same number of times you'd have to leave God's Ulster in any all-island league.

I like Lamb have no interset in seeing an all Ireland league either nothing to do with not wanting to travel long distances or not wanting to see football develop in NI or my club developing but because i dont think an AIL is all that it is cracked up to be. i also get the feeling that were we to have an all Ireland league for a few years the question of the national teams would continously brought to the fore.

[Duffman]

The only other club in the Irish League which might qualify on geographical ground would be Newry City , but they are deep in Northern Ireland in terms of distance from the border, compared to Derry's location at The Brandywell. But I don't think we should be talking in such terms.

Agree that it shouldn't be looked at in those terms but I reckon that Newry is just as close to the border as the RandyBrandywell is, less than 2 miles by my daily driving habits!
I just can't see any incentive for these clubs to join the Eircom League. TBH it is badly enough run without increasing the upset and depression on our northern brethern

[EalingGreen]

It seems to me that even before you got to the practical issues discussed earlier in this thread (travelling distances, playing standards, Sunday football, facilities etc), it would be necessary for there to be a "meeting of minds" on all sides before any such changes could be contemplated.
Even from the very opening post, I fear that some people South of the border may be unable to make such a leap, as evidenced by suggestions such as inviting "Nationalist" clubs like Cliftonville or D.Celtic; or "cherry-picking" the leading IL clubs (LFC, Glens, Ports etc); or the patronising, even insulting jibe about the Eircom being the "real" Irish League.
Such attitudes make the willing co-operation essential to implement any such changes hard to achieve - and that's before they meet their counterpart amongst football fans North of the border.
Marriage for love is hard enough to make work, never mind forced, or "shotgun" marriages of the type that some may be suggesting!

I also fear that such suggestions may be emerging now that the Eircom is doing better than the IL; however, it was not always thus and just as with the respective international teams, fortunes can fall just as easy as they can rise.
On which point, fans in the ROI should appreciate that whatever IL fans think about club football co-operating across the border, there would be immense opposition stirred up amongst many IL fans if such moves at club level were in any way likely to compromise the existence of the NI international team.

Anyhow, it's heartening that subsequent posts by GSpain, College Til I Die, Lionel Ritchie and others appear to represent the true spirit of fans of Eircom football, as does the early success of the Setanta. Reason, toleration and genuine enthusiasm, freely expressed, must surely be the way forward.

[Poor Student]

Ealing, while your fears of the NI team being absorbed into the ROI are understandable, we as eL fans just want an improved league with a bigger audience. Most of us are not interested in pooling resources at international level and would respect any continued existence of seperate national teams in spite of merged leagues. Our primary concern here is domestic club football.

[Dassa]

I always get the impression that some EL fans when they talk bout an AIL get the feeling that it would simply be a case of a few of our clubs joining the EL and thats that.

[EalingGreen]

Fair enough, Poor Student, I take your point about separation of club and international football on the island.
However, your choice of phrase - the NI team "being absorbed into" the ROI - is very telling. Not only do the majority of NI fans not want that, but I've no doubt they don't want even a genuine merger of equals into a single new team, either.

Which principle applies also to any new League set-up. It would not be acceptable (imo) to fans of NI clubs if any new League set-up were just to be a re-vamped Eircom, strengthened by the addition of a few IL clubs (whether chosen by "political" criteria such as D.Celtic or Cliftonville, or by playing strength and support, such as LFC, Glens & Ports).
This reflects an assumed superiority also found in the thread dealing with the possible award of the European U-21 Championships to Ireland, where some posters failed to appreciate that UEFA was proposing a joint hosting of the event, just like Austria and Switzerland are doing with the senior Championship. (This lack of consideration was exacerbated by a degree of ignorance as to proposed stadium developments in NI. As well as the existing 14,500 seater Windsor - superior to any current football stadium in the ROI - the Govt. is pushing the 42,500 seater Maze White Elephant, Belfast City Council is pushing for a 20-25,000 City of Belfast Stadium, Glentoran & the IFA are looking at a 15,000 Blanchflower Stadium & Centre of Excellence at Sydenham and Linfield may be building a new purpose-built, though small, stadium of their own. We'll soon have more stadia than fans, at this rate!)

Anyhow, for any new All-Ireland League set-up to work properly, clubs from both sides of the border must combine freely and for transparently sporting reasons. Further, if a few NI clubs sought to enter a new League primarily for selfish reasons, they should not be allowed to "pull the drawbridge up behind them", thereby leaving the rump of NI clubs to wither and die. (Ditto for the ROI as well, obviously)

I guess what's behind my thoughts is the implication that football in NI (both club and international) is some sort of "Hong Kong" to the Republic's "China".
There's no doubt that at both levels, the ROI is faring better than we are at present, but a longer term view would (imo) recognise e.g that Belfast was long the "footballing capital" of Ireland and that even our second city, Derry has at least as proud a footballing heritage as that of Cork. We've got as good a World Cup record as the ROI, our club football still has potential to put behind it the malaise of the last 20 years now that the Troubles are finally withering away and our Economy is beginning to pick-up accordingly.

If we can sort ourselves out (granted, a huge "if"), then I've no doubt that NI football clubs could stand alongside those in the ROI as equal partners, at least proportionately to our population and economy.
However, the chances of anything happening will be considerably reduced if the ROI/Eircom assumes for itself the role of dominant partner, leaving NI/IL to content itself with "hand-me-downs".