Cliftonville or Donegal Celtic for Eircom League?

[Schumi]

I don't think there's chance of an AIL being the Eircom League plus Linfield, Glens & Portadown, say. It's not the way it should happen and the IFA/Irish League wouldn't stand for it anyway even if it was proposed. The way a new All Ireland League should happen it put the top x teams from each league (possibly tweaked for population differences) into the premier division, the next lot into the first division, etc. As well as being the fairest way of doing it, it's the best way of presenting the new set-up as a an entirely new entity, which is the best way generate new interest, and that's the whole point presumably.

I don't think there's any interest from anyone in combining the international teams to be honest and the inevitable problems with anthems, flags, etc. just wouldn't be worth any footballing benefit for either side.

[Poor Student]

Fair enough, Poor Student, I take your point about separation of club and international football on the island.
However, your choice of phrase - the NI team "being absorbed into" the ROI - is very telling. Not only do the majority of NI fans not want that, but I've no doubt they don't want even a genuine merger of equals into a single new team, either.

I chose those words on purpose as I know that's the kind of discourse you were saying was off putting from a Northern Irish perspective. From my point of view, there's no desire for either. I'm not interested in a merger of national teams for sporting or irridentist reasons. Schumi's post sums up why it wouldn't go down well even on a sporting level.

I've always believed at club level that clubs shouldn't be hampered by national boundary. It could benefit all clubs on this island to be involved in a bigger market and potential audience and I think that's what concerns most people from the LOI side.

I think the post here about Donegal Celtic and Cliftonville reflects the lack of options for bringing new clubs in at the moment more than anything.

[Mr_Parker]

dcfcsteve,

"And what sanctions occured for that undeniably serious security issue inside an Irish League ground....? And how did that compare to the treatment of the Brandywell ? I could mention numerous other serious outbreaks of public disorder in IL grounds - as recently as last year - that have gone without penalty against those Stadiums as well. Strange, huh....?"

Did anyone put the matter before the Irish League Management Committee for a vote on sanctions?

The IFA & IFL refused to condemn the hand grenade attack on Cliftonville supporters let alone issue sanctions.

[David]

The IFA & IFL refused to condemn the hand grenade attack on Cliftonville supporters let alone issue sanctions.

Did they ever condemn a terrorist attack?

[Mr_Parker]

Did they ever condemn a terrorist attack?

Why, have other supporters and officials from one of their member clubs had an attempt on their lives made while inside a ground at a game that they were hosting?

[Lux Interior]

of course they are and they most likely also pay a small fortune to go to those (higher standard) games, which i, as it stands, don't.
you seriously cannot argue that an ail will either:
1) cost more in terms of money and time for the average fan.
or
2) mean more missed games for the average fan.

Sorry, lamb, I don't buy this one.

I don't think any of us are under the illusion that the IL/EL is at the top end of the standard matrix, therefore we attend because of other factors (outside the often grim fayre on pitch). In any case, I believe the standard of an amalgamated league would be higher.

In a hypothetical A-IL, you would have two guaranteed massive journeys (Cork? Waterford?) to undertake per season.

Suggesting that travel to Dublin is too far and not cost-effective, is stretching reality a smidgeon, particularly when it took the guts of 1 1/2 hours to travel to Institute/Omagh.

[David]

Why, have other supporters and officials from one of their member clubs had an attempt on their lives made while inside a ground at a game that they were hosting?

Just something else for Cliftonville to whinge about whilst completely ignoring the fact that a sizeable number of your support cheered the attack. Was there any condemnation of that from Cliftonville?

[dcfcsteve]

The IFA & IFL refused to condemn the hand grenade attack on Cliftonville supporters let alone issue sanctions.

So - a one-off incident endangering neither supporters nor players happens outside the Brandywell at the height of the troubles, and the ILMC/IFA work themselves into a frenzy, banning use of the ground indefinitely.

Then in a relatively more peaceful time, a hand grenade gets thrown at opposition supporters inside Windsor, and the issue doesn't even warrant so much as an announcement to say it was wrong.

There have been numerous incidents at Windsor over the decades (not just at the height of the troubles) yet I'm not aware as so much as a one-match ban being doled out as a result. If a hand grenade had ever been thrown at supporters in the Brandywell, do you honestly think we'd have faced no penalty as a result....? At least when we did have Police in the ground they never felt the need to fire live baton rounds straight into supporters in a busy stand (a la the Donegal Celtic cup game).

Strange that Derry City fans might find this all a bit suspicious. I just can't work out why....

[Mr_Parker]

Just something else for Cliftonville to whinge about whilst completely ignoring the fact that a sizeable number of your support cheered the attack. Was there any condemnation of that from Cliftonville?

When did I ignore that? Was it part of the point I was making and how is it relevent to the discussion in regards to the behaviour of the IFA/IFL in how they treated clubs differently over such incidents?

At that time Cliftonville fans were being condemned left, right and centre for incidents that happened before, during and after games. Some of it was justified, some of it was not. However when an attempt was made to kill us, there was silence from all those critics. When the press asked them the question they refused to answer.

You can call it a whinge if you want but there is a big difference between a few hundred people cheering and the governing bodies hiding behind a wall of silence.

[Mr_Parker]

At least when we did have Police in the ground they never felt the need to fire live baton rounds straight into supporters in a busy stand (a la the Donegal Celtic cup game).

Not just DC, it was almost a matter of routine that plastics were used on the terraces at Windsor when Cliftonville played there in the past.

[David]

So - a one-off incident endangering neither supporters nor players happens outside the Brandywell at the height of the troubles, and the ILMC/IFA work themselves into a frenzy, banning use of the ground indefinitely.

Then in a relatively more peaceful time, a hand grenade gets thrown at opposition supporters inside Windsor, and the issue doesn't even warrant so much as an announcement to say it was wrong.

There have been numerous incidents at Windsor over the decades (not just at the height of the troubles) yet I'm not aware as so much as a one-match ban being doled out as a result. If a hand grenade had ever been thrown at supporters in the Brandywell, do you honestly think we'd have faced no penalty as a result....? At least when we did have Police in the ground they never felt the need to fire live baton rounds straight into supporters in a busy stand (a la the Donegal Celtic cup game).

Strange that Derry City fans might find this all a bit suspicious. I just can't work out why....

Cliftonville and Derry feeling persecuted together, the weight of that chip will be unbearable. First of all there was no plastic bullets fired into a "busy stand", it was terracing. Donegal Celtic brought a crowd of over 5000 that day when there average crowd would not have reached triple figures. What were they there for? I would have no hesitation in saying that the vast majority were there for trouble and that's what they got so slap it up them. By the way it was the same on both sides that day, we also had hangers on, indeed I know of Glenmen who were at that game. So many that day went looking for trouble.

As for the grenade attack, it was shameful but very much an isolated incident whereas Brandywell was, and still is, an unsafe place to go for some supporters.

[David]

When did I ignore that? Was it part of the point I was making and how is it relevent to the discussion in regards to the behaviour of the IFA/IFL in how they treated clubs differently over such incidents?

At that time Cliftonville fans were being condemned left, right and centre for incidents that happened before, during and after games. Some of it was justified, some of it was not. However when an attempt was made to kill us, there was silence from all those critics. When the press asked them the question they refused to answer.

You can call it a whinge if you want but there is a big difference between a few hundred people cheering and the governing bodies hiding behind a wall of silence.

Was there any condemnation from Cliftonville FC of their supporters cheering a terrorist attack?

[Mr_Parker]

Was there any condemnation from Cliftonville FC of their supporters cheering a terrorist attack?

No, not that I can recall. Relevance as I asked above or does that clear the IFA/IFL of their inactions then?

David, stop side tracking and face the facts.

[Mr_Parker]

Cliftonville and Derry feeling persecuted together, the weight of that chip will be unbearable. First of all there was no plastic bullets fired into a "busy stand", it was terracing. Donegal Celtic brought a crowd of over 5000 that day when there average crowd would not have reached triple figures. What were they there for? I would have no hesitation in saying that the vast majority were there for trouble and that's what they got so slap it up them. By the way it was the same on both sides that day, we also had hangers on, indeed I know of Glenmen who were at that game. So many that day went looking for trouble.

As for the grenade attack, it was shameful but very much an isolated incident whereas Brandywell was, and still is, an unsafe place to go for some supporters.

Isolated incident? I would have agreed however our last visit to Windsor Park a couple of weeks ago certainly has raised new questions with our fans being attacked both inside and outside Windsor.

As for your "justification" of the plastics being fired indiscriminately into the DC crowd I note you completely ignore the fact that it happened to Cliftonville supporters on many occassions. So is it a case of "so slap it up them" too?

[dcfcsteve]

Cliftonville and Derry feeling persecuted together, the weight of that chip will be unbearable.

It may suit your purposes to link us together, but I'm not. That doesn't counter the undeniable fact that there has been inequity of treatment with regards the Brandywell and Windsor over the years. Even Ray Charles could see that....

First of all there was no plastic bullets fired into a "busy stand", it was terracing.

Oh - I do apologse. Obviously the need to fire plastic bullets into crowded terracing proves that there are no security concerns with regards a stadium. How silly of me not to spot the obvious distinction....

Donegal Celtic brought a crowd of over 5000 that day when there average crowd would not have reached triple figures. What were they there for? I would have no hesitation in saying that the vast majority were there for trouble and that's what they got so slap it up them. By the way it was the same on both sides that day, we also had hangers on, indeed I know of Glenmen who were at that game. So many that day went looking for trouble.

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. But that changes nothing re the fact you have had serious fan disturbances INSIDE your ground numerous times. Derry City NEVER have, yet we're the only one between us to have been punished. I can see Ray Charles peering over my screen and nodding in agreement again....

In fact - saying that people went to that Donegal Celtic game intent on causing trouble, and were sucessful in doing so INSIDE the ground actually makes it EVEN WORSE for Windsor ! How many of those looking for touble outside the Brandywell in February 2005 managed to get inside to cause trouble in that game...? Answer = none. Hence there was no trouble inside our ground. Yet you can't stop people intent on causing trouble from getting into your ground, even with the Police there to help you !! That made the security implications of Windsor at that time doubly worse !!

As for the grenade attack, it was shameful but very much an isolated incident whereas Brandywell was, and still is, an unsafe place to go for some supporters.

And the hijacking of the Ballymena team bus wasn't an isolated incident ?

And the stoning of the Linfield buses OUTSIDE the brandywell in Feb 2005 wasn't an isolated incident ? No other supporter's buses have been attacked before or since. Not even the Glens buses, or your own buses when you visited this year (and don't trot out nonesense about 'well they would've been attacked if they'd had the chance', as we could say that about anything. Security is there to prevent incidents happening - not to notch them up as fictional incidents on some vague notion that something 'might' have happened anyway...).

Take the blinkers off David. There have been many, many more incidents of a much graver public safety concern inside Windsor over many decades than the hijacking of a bus with no human safety implications at the Brandywell. There was also a massively serious oubreak of public disorder inside the Oval as recent as last season. Yet only one of those 3 grounds was ever considered unsafe for spectators, and punished accordingly. There is no way of denying the inequity of treatment, and no degree of head-burying or 'whataboutery' on your part can hide that undeniable fact.

[David]

No, not that I can recall. Relevance as I asked above or does that clear the IFA/IFL of their inactions then?

David, stop side tracking and face the facts.

Surely when getting into the business of condemnation all such actions should be condemned. Is it not hypocritical criticising IFA when your own club would not condemn the action of their fans supporting terrorist activity.

[David]

It may suit your purposes to link us together, but I'm not. That doesn't counter the undeniable fact that there has been inequity of treatment with regards the Brandywell and Windsor over the years. Even Ray Charles could see that....



Oh - I do apologse. Obviously the need to fire plastic bullets into crowded terracing proves that there are no security concerns with regards a stadium. How silly of me not to spot the obvious distinction....



Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. But that changes nothing re the fact you have had serious fan disturbances INSIDE your ground numerous times. Derry City NEVER have, yet we're the only one between us to have been punished. I can see Ray Charles peering over my screen and nodding in agreement again....

In fact - saying that people went to that Donegal Celtic game intent on causing trouble, and were sucessful in doing so INSIDE the ground actually makes it EVEN WORSE for Windsor ! How many of those looking for touble outside the Brandywell in February 2005 managed to get inside to cause trouble in that game...? Answer = none. Hence there was no trouble inside our ground. Yet you can't stop people intent on causing trouble from getting into your ground, even with the Police there to help you !! That made the security implications of Windsor at that time doubly worse !!



And the hijacking of the Ballymena team bus wasn't an isolated incident ?

And the stoning of the Linfield buses OUTSIDE the brandywell in Feb 2005 wasn't an isolated incident ? No other supporter's buses have been attacked before or since. Not even the Glens buses, or your own buses when you visited this year (and don't trot out nonesense about 'well they would've been attacked if they'd had the chance', as we could say that about anything. Security is there to prevent incidents happening - not to notch them up as fictional incidents on some vague notion that something 'might' have happened anyway...).

Take the blinkers off David. There have been many, many more incidents of a much graver public safety concern inside Windsor over many decades than the hijacking of a bus with no human safety implications at the Brandywell. There was also a massively serious oubreak of public disorder inside the Oval as recent as last season. Yet only one of those 3 grounds was ever considered unsafe for spectators, and punished accordingly. There is no way of denying the inequity of treatment, and no degree of head-burying or 'whataboutery' on your part can hide that undeniable fact.

Actions have been taken with regards to what happened at the Oval. As for all these incidents at Windsor, name them!

[-lamb-]

Sorry, lamb, I don't buy this one.

I don't think any of us are under the illusion that the IL/EL is at the top end of the standard matrix, therefore we attend because of other factors (outside the often grim fayre on pitch). In any case, I believe the standard of an amalgamated league would be higher.

In a hypothetical A-IL, you would have two guaranteed massive journeys (Cork? Waterford?) to undertake per season.

Suggesting that travel to Dublin is too far and not cost-effective, is stretching reality a smidgeon, particularly when it took the guts of 1 1/2 hours to travel to Institute/Omagh.

that admission prices would go up is almost certain, that mid-week games in dublin or further are probably not on for a lot of people can't really be argued with either.
i don't know about you but it took me 1 hour 15 mins (leaving at 4.15pm on a tuesday afternoon) to get to newry, nevermind dublin.
you're forgetting cup games too.
whilst its still feasible to get to a lot of games theres no doubt there would be much more hassle, time and expense involved to see the same amount of games a regular away goer sees now if they aren't played on a saturday in the main.

[dcfcsteve]

Actions have been taken with regards to what happened at the Oval. As for all these incidents at Windsor, name them!

What action happened re the Oval - a slapped wrist ?? What happened there was worse than a bus being highjacked during a game by elements uninvolved with the game and with not a single injury to human life arising.

As for incidemnts at Windsor - list them all !?!?! I'm not sure Foot.ie has the band-width. Regardless, here's 4 extremely serious, life-threatening ones spanning the decades for you to whet your appetite and fill your obvious knowledge gap regarding your own club. See if you can spot the trend regarding the clubs involved...

1920, versus Belfast Celtic
- An incident that contributed to Belfast Celtic's temporary withdrawal from the Irish league until 1924 (read the Belfast Celtic story for more info).

Boxing Day 1948, League game against Belfast Celtic.
- Your fans poured onto the pitch after a 1:1 draw (I mean - who the fcuk riots after a mid-season draw....? ) and assaulted Celtic players, leaving one unconscious with a broken leg and 2 others severly injured.

February 1990, Irish Cup game versus Donegal Celtic
- A major riot began inside the stadium, which the RUC felt was of a severity requiring plastic bullets to be fired into crowded terracing....!
- A Donegal Celtic player was attacked by a Linfield fan who got onto the pitch during the game, and then made his way back into the Linfield stand un-impeeded by either Police or stewards.
- Ironically, the game was supposed to be a home fixture for Celtic, but was moved to Windsor for fear of disorder. The Police claimed that they "could provide...the necessary policing for the protection of public safety and order" at Windsor.
- Humble pie became a stock menu-item in RUC canteens in the weeks following the fixture....
- Despite the trouble occuring at Windsor, Doengal Celtic were prevented form playing Irish Cup games at home in the following 2 seasons - even against a relatively inoffensive side like Ards.

November 1991, League Game versus Cliftonville
- A hand grenade was thrown into the Cliftonville supporters section of the ground...

There are also a number of incidents recounted in the book 'the Derry City FC story' of City fans being attacked and chased in Windsor over the years, and the same again in 'The Belfast Celtic Story'. Without re-reading both books I wouldn't be able to list the incidents quickly, though feel free to read them yourself to fill-in your obvious knowledge gap with regards the violent behaviour that often occured within your own stadium...

Is that enough to open your eyes David....?

Meanwhile, care to tell me of an incident INISDE the Brandywell of away supporters and/or players ever being attacked (and not even with hand grenades or beign left unconscious..) ? Shamrock Rovers fans comically fighting amongst themselves earlier this season won't count, by the way...

So I wonder then - which stadium has been the most worthy over time of having action taken against it for its lack of security. Hmmmmm....

[David]

A bit indicative of how poor your argument is when you have to go back to the 1920's and 1940's for some of your evidence. Every ground that attracts large numbers is going to have incidents of this nature every so often and there is no denying that. Indeed my father has told me of how frightening it was to attend the Brandywell when Derry were in the Irish League. So much so that he refused point blank to go to any of our recent games there despite still being a regular at games so it would seem that Derry City are not exactly angelic either. Incidentally many other Bluemen of a similar age group have also refused to go back so he is not alone in this. The fact is that Windsor is now reasonably safe to attend, as you yourselves found out. Can you say the same about the Brandywell at the minute with regards to Linfield? No we were not attacked last time but we had to take a diversion into another country to avoid being attacked. Also in the event of there being problems in and around Windsor then the police are there to deal with any problems. Again the same cannot be said for the Brandywell as we found out to our cost in February 2005. How is it that Linfield can play in Dublin without any problems yet not at the Brandywell? How come that when we do play in Dublin that the behaviour of our supporters is praised from all quarters including the Garda? You mention the Oval and the scenes that day were undoubtedly disgraceful but we got a heavy fine, the capacity for the visiting end at the Oval has been greatly reduced and all Big Two games are now all ticket. You will not get me, or any other decent Linfield supporter, do anything other than condemn some of those within our support that day. We accept full responsibility for those within our support, even though I have reason to believe that many of them are far from being regulars at games. Do Derry City also accept resoponsibility for the action of their supporters, particlularly when visiting the same venue? Or do they prefer to shift the blame onto another club?