Bertie's Money

**BohsPartisan** · 28/09/2006, 10:53 AM

Maybe Bertie's mouse slipped too. He ment to apply for a loan but he clicked gift???

**Dodge** · 28/09/2006, 10:55 AM

As many mistakes here as Bertie made ffs...

**Student Mullet** · 28/09/2006, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by pete

We now have a Taoiseach who doesn't understand the different between a loan and a gift & a person who when Minister for Finance either was unaware of tax law or broke that law.

The problem I have with that pete is that the definition of a gift might well be different in the tax law than in a dictionary.

The only tax expert I've seen on the TV is the woman on Prime Time and she said that Bertie hadn't broken the law. Also, we can be pretty sure that the opposition politicians are combing through the tax laws to pin one on him. Since they haven't managed yet it's possible that Bertie is innocent of breaking the law and only guilty of being an idiot.

**pete** · 28/09/2006, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Student Mullet

The only tax expert I've seen on the TV is the woman on Prime Time and she said that Bertie hadn't broken the law. Also, we can be pretty sure that the opposition politicians are combing through the tax laws to pin one on him. Since they haven't managed yet it's possible that Bertie is innocent of breaking the law and only guilty of being an idiot.

If that is true then out tax laws are stupid. I wouldn't expect much else from the Revenue Commissioners who have proven to be completely inept at collecting taxes off politicians in the past.

Surely if Bertie gets away with this excuse every bent politician can claim those bribes were just "loans" that they had no intention of repaying. Did lawlor or Burke use that excuse too?

**Macy** · 28/09/2006, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by pete

Surely if Bertie gets away with this excuse every bent politician can claim those bribes were just "loans" that they had no intention of repaying. Did lawlor or Burke use that excuse too?

I don't know about here, but certainly loans that have subsequently been written off have been a favoured method by New Labour in the UK to get around their donation laws. Wouldn't be surprised if that method was used here too, and you can have no doubt if there's a loophole FF would've found it.

Actually, didn't Lowry actually try and claim that, and was told by Bertie himself to produce the documentation to prove it was a loan and that he intended to repay it?

**pete** · 28/09/2006, 1:37 PM

I am surprised other political parties have not made much of the admission that Bertie appointed people to state bodies because they were friends. Then again shows what the rest of them would be doing too.

Seems like the opposition will now go after him based on his story that received money for public speaking that he lodged in his personal bank account. Reading today in the IT & they saying eh said he did not have a personal bank account during his separation - where did his wages get lodged?

Suppose the problem with lying to hide something is that hard to stop the lies then...

**Schumi** · 28/09/2006, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by pete

I am surprised other political parties have not made much of the admission that Bertie appointed people to state bodies because they were friends. Then again shows what the rest of them would be doing too.

Spot on.

**Strabane_Harp** · 28/09/2006, 1:57 PM

Can we get a poll on whether Bertie Ahern should resign as either Taoiseach or as Head of Fianna Fail?

bearing in mind him resigning doesnt necessarily mean an election, as the next Fianna Fail leader could lead the same government.

**Macy** · 28/09/2006, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by pete

I am surprised other political parties have not made much of the admission that Bertie appointed people to state bodies because they were friends. Then again shows what the rest of them would be doing too.

It's one thing doing it, as all parties do when in Government*, quite another to use it as some sort of defence. I mean the others can say the best man for the job in their opinion, rather than sure he likes a pint in Fagan's give him the job.

*although not so many as sneaky to appoint people after the Dail has risen as happened in 2002

**Anto McC** · 28/09/2006, 4:30 PM

Not at all!

**pete** · 28/09/2006, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by Strabane_Harp

Can we get a poll on whether Bertie Ahern should resign as either Taoiseach or as Head of Fianna Fail?

Surely if he resigned as Taoiseach he would resign as FF leader? If he only resigned as Taoiseach would need new election.

**Strabane_Harp** · 28/09/2006, 5:35 PM

no uve misunderstood me.

If he steps down as Taoiseach and Fianna Fail leader, it wont lead to a general election. The new Leader of Fianna Fail could continue on in Coalition with Satan, sorry i mean the PD's

**pineapple stu** · 28/09/2006, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by Student Mullet

The problem I have with that pete is that the definition of a gift might well be different in the tax law than in a dictionary.

I'd need a tax book in front of me to answer that fully (and obviously spend more time answering you and thereby charging you more), but there is Gift Tax (Capital Acquisitions Tax), so it doesn't necessarily qualify as income, which would be taxed at a higher rate. 1993 CAT rates are on the Revenue site. However, it would still have to be declared and returned, whch this appears not to have been (I'm basing that on the fact that if it had been declared, someone would have said it). There's penalties for not declaring information on tax returns.

I don't think the exact sum has come out yet; it's "between E50,000 and E100,000" according to the ireland.com article. CAT would work out at about 30%, say, so that's at least E16,666 due plus interest and penalties going back 13 years, which may well double the amount. Not huge, but obviously it's the principle.

I don't know what the exact definition of a "Gift" is, but you would have to imagine that something which is freely being described as a gift is a gift. Certainly, common sense says that it's a gift and not income, and tax law (as with all law) does try and apply common sense.

That's my view of it anyway; I'm sure Bertie's accountant is more qualified than me!

**DmanDmythDledge** · 28/09/2006, 10:09 PM

If Chawke is telling the truth then Bertie saw it as a loan and did no wrong surely? Except for not declaring it for tax if he had to?

**pineapple stu** · 28/09/2006, 10:20 PM

I think you're missing a set of inverted commas there.

**DmanDmythDledge** · 28/09/2006, 10:39 PM

That's why I said if.

Anyway why am I here?

**dahamsta** · 29/09/2006, 12:06 AM

New statement from Bertie here.

**Plastic Paddy** · 30/09/2006, 9:14 AM

Bertie's affairs (no, not that one

) make the Diary page in this morning's Guardian:

Originally Posted by Simon Hoggart, Guardian

The annual Irish embassy party at the Labour conference took place on Tuesday, just after it emerged that Bertie Ahern had been accepting large and generous loans from friends. Word quickly zipped around the room that you could buy in Dublin a garment labelled "Been there, done that, bought the Taoiseach".

PP