Bohemians' millions

**Billsthoughts** · 13/09/2006, 11:19 AM

Stuttgart, why pick one line from a post which made some fairly interesting and well made points?

**Merc67** · 13/09/2006, 11:28 AM

rugby attendances are not really what eL fans should be comparing themselves with for a couple of reasons.

1) it's a professional game that has (often) Ireland's international players on show. this is not the case, unf, in the eL and so unfair.

2) it's generally international competition (magners league and Heineken cup) which brings with it it's own level of interest, and once more there are other international stars on show.

3) it's a smaller sport in ireland than soccer and so any comparison should be weighted as such. in this regard it's more negative from an eL point of view. 6,000 people coming out to support a rugby team should see about 15-20k supporting soccer, given the respective fan base and participation levels.

4) rugby is also something that has more of a social (climbing?)/status thing behind it. people don't always go to these games because they love the game. it's fri night entertainment at donnybrook, you can meet colleagues etc, you can have a pint and they make an effort by putting food on too. this doesnt happen in eL.

it all boils down as usual to the competition available to sports fans.
rugby fans know they'll be watching, mostly, the best ireland has to offer in fairly decent surroundings.
prospective eL supporters know the best is on the tv and the place they can watch local talent in is not as comfy as a couch, does not serve pints and they dont believe in the talent.
but once more it boils doen

**Stuttgart88** · 13/09/2006, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

Stuttgart, why pick one line from a post which made some fairly interesting and well made points?

I'm not saying it's not a very good post. It clearly is. Well written too, undoubtedly. I don't know what prompted the debate between dcfcsteve & PP and I'm actually not that bothered.

I highlighted that one point because for me, it prompted the most obvious questions, namely why all of a sudden Leinster rugby has support it never used to have, and is there a lesson for domestic football (which I think there is, but not without implications too)?

As it happens Merc67 below has answered the first of those questions and, by suggestion anyway, probably the second.

Also, the reason I highlighted that one point only was because part of the post deals with PP's circumstances, which isn't the problem at hand because PP was born & bred in the UK ( I believe). A lot of the rest of the post addresses the absurdity of the Irish & their relationship with football. I can't argue with it so I didn't address it. As dcfcsteve himself said "it's self evident".

The "schism" referred to is correctly identified. How to reverse it is the big issue and the Leinster Rugby fan example prompted questions that need to be asked in my opinion.

I'd be happy to thrash out this debate further & listen to arguements from all sides.

Also, if you want me to complete my comments on the post, I'd say that all of dcfcsteve's first four bullet points apply to me & my affection for Arsenal FC (nice strips, some Irish, some success, influenced by friends) , but the last two don't. I dreamt of playing for Shamrock Rovers as a kid & Milltown was the best ground in the world for me, Dalyer & Belfield not far behind in their different ways. I was born in Glasgow & spent time there so "following" Celtic was pretty obvious for me too. But as I'll say repeatedly, the Irish national team is the one that means most to me. That's just the way it is.

**Schumi** · 13/09/2006, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I highlighted that one point because for me, it prompted the most obvious questions, namely why all of a sudden Leinster rugby has support it never used to have, and is there a lesson for domestic football (which I think there is, but not without implications too)?

I think the biggest factor is the quality of the team. Half of the Irish international team play for Leinster, something which will never happen for an Irish football team.

The crowds for Leinster matches aren't that huge either outside of the 5 or 6 big games a season. A successful Bohs/Rovers/Pats team wouldn't be that far behind their 3-4,000 normal crowd.

**Stuttgart88** · 13/09/2006, 12:10 PM

Out of intererst how many would the Dubs get during the winter?

**Billsthoughts** · 13/09/2006, 1:00 PM

Dublin get decent enough crowds in the League. deffo more than any other county. club championship football in dublin gets relatively decent enough crowds as well. As for the other post I just thought you were picking one thing to have a go at cause you didnt have anything else to criticise. Apologies. I think he makes a few interesting points and he makes them pretty well. and as I dont really support any club most of his criticisms apply to me as much anyone else. If man u or arsenal were on my doorstep I dont think I would be goin regularly eihter to be honest. I just dont have the time. I just dont see how people who claim to be massive man u / celtic / arsenal fans dont bother going to at games here is all. the typew off people who would watch a match between Fulham and Birmingham if it was on the telly.

**NeilMcD** · 13/09/2006, 1:03 PM

Just out of curiousity what games do you go to Bill.

**Billsthoughts** · 13/09/2006, 1:07 PM

Ive told you before ,I am not going to any games with you!!!!!

**NeilMcD** · 13/09/2006, 1:16 PM

You should, live football is great and addictive.

**Billsthoughts** · 13/09/2006, 1:27 PM

I should go with you???
I dont think so.
Have been to a load of games in a load of different sports/countries but never on a regular/weekly basis. just not for me. and I would say it is the same for a lot of people.
If the dubs were playing in croker week in week out at their current level of competitiveness I doubt they would fill it in the same way they fill it now. Thats why I think people who are looking for premiership / Irish international team style attendances at club fixtures are setting unrealistic goals. In my opinion regular average crowds of 8 or so thousand would be the most any EL teams could hope for. and I would deem that as a successful and thriving league

**Stuttgart88** · 13/09/2006, 1:30 PM

What Merc67's post "tells" me is that the following chain of events is plausible:

More money, which leads to
Keeping better players at home, which leads to
Better standards, which leads to
International competitiveness, which leads to
More credibility, which leads to
More interest, which leads to
Better attendances,

all leading to more exposure, more revenue, and so the cycle continues until the time comes when current Irish internationals are regularly drawn from the domestic league.

It still doesn't fully address the issue of why a guy who previously identified with Bath, but obviously not a AIL (or predecessor) team is now happy to attach himself to Leinster. Is there not a parallel between the clubs "contributing" players to the Leinster panel and the existing eL clubs? When I was in school in Dublin 6 I was the only one of my year of over 100 who attended eL regularly. When I was in UCD my circle of friends was drawn largely from fellow football fans. We all played Superleague, watched English footy on TV and yapped about football for hours together. How many of us actually watched UCD? 5 at most.

There's a real problem in that the current eL clubs simply don't belong to the broader public. Of course it's not a problem for those who love their local clubs but it's something that must be overcome for the eL to have broader appeal. This is where some form of aggegation or franchising, however unpalatable the term, could help matters.

Alternatively, I've heard wage caps as the first step that must be taken. Is the arguement that the aforementioned clubs, for example, are therefore set in competition for attendances & revenue, and ultimately only the fittest survive, thus arriving at pretty much the same place - i.e., fewer but better clubs?

Put it all another way: if Irish football was hit by an asteroid and it had to start again from scratch tomorrow, would an alternative approch be more likely to reap dividends than a slow overhaul of the current structure?

Only asking.

**Stuttgart88** · 13/09/2006, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

Thats why I think people who are looking for premiership / Irish international team style attendances at club fixtures are setting unrealistic goals. In my opinion regular average crowds of 8 or so thousand would be the most any EL teams could hope for. and I would deem that as a successful and thriving league

I think that's fair.

**NeilMcD** · 13/09/2006, 1:36 PM

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

I should go with you???
I dont think so.
Have been to a load of games in a load of different sports/countries but never on a regular/weekly basis. just not for me. and I would say it is the same for a lot of people.
If the dubs were playing in croker week in week out at their current level of competitiveness I doubt they would fill it in the same way they fill it now. Thats why I think people who are looking for premiership / Irish international team style attendances at club fixtures are setting unrealistic goals. In my opinion regular average crowds of 8 or so thousand would be the most any EL teams could hope for. and I would deem that as a successful and thriving league

Never said you should go with me I am saying attending football is great and very addictive.

**endabob1** · 13/09/2006, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think that's fair.

8k would only be achievable IMO by half a dozen clubs, the likes of Sligo, Longford, Galway, Limerick would never get that sort of crowd unless as one off's.

**Soper** · 13/09/2006, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by endabob1

8k would only be achievable IMO by half a dozen clubs, the likes of Sligo, Longford, Galway, Limerick would never get that sort of crowd unless as one off's.

Yeah, sure we only get crowds of 534 every home match

**endabob1** · 13/09/2006, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by Soper

Yeah, sure we only get crowds of 534 every home match

I know Rovers get more than that but you're a long way from 8,000 on a regular basis

**Dodge** · 13/09/2006, 2:47 PM

If the league averaged 3k a game I'd be happy. It doens't come close though. Oh and BTW if Genesis use the Celtic League crowds as a basis of whatever rubbish they spout (including the Welsh and Scottish crowds!!!), I think us using it to compare is fair enough

**SUB of the day** · 13/09/2006, 9:54 PM

Originally Posted by Soper

Yeah, sure we only get crowds of 534 every home match

Evening Echo in the Peoples Republic are saying 2,000 showed up last night. [Sligo V City]Don't mean to crow, but another couple of weeks and the chant will be consigned to history.

**SligoBrewer** · 14/09/2006, 9:16 AM

Originally Posted by endabob1

8k would only be achievable IMO by half a dozen clubs, the likes of Sligo, Longford, Galway, Limerick would never get that sort of crowd unless as one off's.

we could easily get 8k per week, with the right team,etc. etc.

**SligoBrewer** · 14/09/2006, 9:19 AM

Originally Posted by SUB of the day

Evening Echo in the Peoples Republic are saying 2,000 showed up last night. [Sligo V City]Don't mean to crow, but another couple of weeks and the chant will be consigned to history.

there was way more than 2k there!

easily at least 3.5k