Bohemians' millions

[NeilMcD]

Aslan are rubbish full stop.

[SUB of the day]

Agree completely with Stu '88......eg Shels struggle to get 1500 at EL games in Tolka.For a PRE qualifier V Deportivo 24,000 seats soldout at Lansdowne.Cork City brought 16,000 fans to the same venue for the final v Drogs....twice the capacity of Turners Cross.22,000 showed up for Rovers v Pats in the first match at the RDS.300,000 tuned in for the City v Derry league decider last November.Event junkies? maybe some.Remember the Munster rugby team couldn't fill Thomond till 2001....look at them now............Just read post, I sound like an anorak, but stats stand.

[endabob1]

I'm also sick of reading syndicated match reports of British football in Irish papers barely mentioning the Irish that were in action. There's not ONE mention of Doyle's performance last night in the Irish Times, no mention of Shane Long coming off the bench or no mention of Richard Dunne.

That's because the Irish papers are too mean to send journalists over to games so they just lift the reports from a news agency or in the Indo's case they get it from the UK Independent news paper which they own.

[NeilMcD]

New-found wealth a real challenge for Bohemians

Emmet Malone On Soccer: Given that few Irish clubs manage to generate even 20 per cent of their income from gate receipts, it's been tempting to view most of them as highly efficient fund-raising organisations that happen to field football teams.

The news last week, however, that Bohemians are set to sell their home of more than a century for some €65 million suggests that the most successful club of the next decade or so may simply be the one that best played the booming Dublin property market of the last few years.

The futures of Shelbourne and St Patrick's Athletic are also both closely tied up with the value of their respective homes in one way or another but the last of the capital's "big four", of course, have nothing to sell or redevelop given that Milltown was cashed in two decades ago. Many of those involved with Shamrock Rovers now were active opponents of the decision to move the club back then and how different, they must wonder, the last 19 years might have been if Keep Rovers At Milltown (KRAM) had been successful in its attempt to match a purchase price that is now estimated to have been a little short of €1.3 million.

The amount seems almost laughable these days, barely the price of a solitary semi-detached home in one of the city's more desirable areas - Milltown for instance - and few doubt that if sold now Glenmalure Park, though sitting on a smaller site than Dalymount, would achieve a similar sort of sum to its northside counterpart.

Whether even KRAM would have held out to see the value of the ground reach its current level is another matter. "Personally I doubt Rovers would still be playing there no matter who owned the club," says Mark Lynch, a present day director and long-time supporter. "I think the time would have been reached at some point where the people in charge would have reckoned that it was time to move on because the asset was simply too valuable to hold on to.

"It's impossible to say when that might have occurred but what is certain is that the club would have done better than it did out of the sale the way it actually did happen".

Not long after Rovers had their home sold from under them, Bohemians had a narrow escape when they received an offer of fractionally over €1 million for Dalymount but declined to sell. There have been some tough times since with the club struggling to maintain the ground, never mind update it. But the determination to stay on until now looks to have ensured a bright future.

Others have done relatively well out of the city's property boom by buying before it was too late - with Shelbourne a good example. Around the same time Rovers were selling up and Bohemians deciding to stay put, Ollie Byrne was eyeing up Tolka Park as a new home for his club. The lease on the ground wasn't an entirely straightforward affair but at around €410,000 the deal was still a good one and it is believed that the club's net share of the recent agreement to sell the ground on ahead of a planned move to Santry was around €17 million.

The purchase of Tolka was reportedly supported in a roundabout way by the FAI who, it seems, eased the move by supporting Home Farm in its development of Whitehall. But the association's precarious financial state combined with the day-to-day existence endured by most of the country's leading clubs meant pitifully little was invested in property or other infrastructure back then at a time when it was more affordable.

"When the AUL bought Clonshaugh," recalls Michael Hyland, the league's long-time president, "the FAI was broke. They were actually looking for a loan from the junior league so we went ahead and did it ourselves." Hyland bid for the 49.5 acres of then farmland close to Dublin airport at an auction in 1986 and subsequently bought it for around €69,000. Getting the ESB to move pylons so that the pitches could be laid out cost the league almost as much again while many times that has been spent since on developing the site.

A couple of years back it was valued at around €14 million, a figure that would presumably multiply if it were to be rezoned. It seems almost unthinkable that anything like it would or could be purchased for football so close to the city today.

The failure of eircom League sides to secure their long-term futures at grounds of their own choice wasn't confined to Dublin with grounds, most painfully Flower Lodge, lost to the game in places like Cork, Limerick and Waterford. In many cases there have since been successful partnerships developed with local leagues but the fact remains the clubs involved lack control over their own destiny because they couldn't buy when the opportunity arose.

The properties bought and developed by the GAA during the past two decades, in contrast, have played a critical part in the health (and wealth) of that organisation today.

Around Dublin, though, even relatively small football clubs showed what could have been achieved with a little foresight and a very modest amount of cash. After a three- year search for a home of its own, for instance, St Francis spent €45,000 on 6.25 acres close to Baldonnell aerodrome in 1987 and then a further €25,000 on three more acres five years later.

"Our secret," recalls then manager Pete Mahon, who was central to the deal, "was that we were like the GAA in that nobody was taking a penny out of the club at the time. After Malahide United, I think, we were the second club in the country to run a lottery and we did everything else we could think of too but everything went into the club and it enabled us to make enormous progress and do everything the right way."

Almost 20 years on, the land, John Hyland Park, is the subject of a bitter dispute between two factions thrown up by a split that occurred after Mahon's departure. "Buying the land was the best thing that ever happened the club but the fall-out over it was the worst," observes Mahon ruefully now.

The boys at Bohemians, meanwhile, may have done very well to realise the value of a home whose potential they could not afford to develop but for property owners in Dublin becoming rich, on paper at least, has been all too easy during the past couple of decades. Using that new-found wealth to secure a prosperous long-term future is an altogether tougher challenge and one that the club's committee is only starting to grapple with.

© The Irish Times

[Bald Student]

Through their travels to England, Scotland or wherever watching soccer, watching Ireland play away, or watching Irish rugby sides play abroad, Irish people now have a set minimum standard of facilities that they see as benchmarks. Most Irish soccer venues fall way short.

I note that you've only cited foreign stadia in this argument. Unless you can convince me that the terrace in Donnybrook Rugby is more comfortable than terraces in soccer grounds I won't agree.

[Stuttgart88]

I could add several GAA grounds too.

Donnybrook is no great shakes I accept, or certainly wasn't when I moved to the UK in 1999. I've been past it many times since but only difference I can see is some sort of construction at the Bective End now.

My guess is that any improvement in crowds at Leinster rugby is in spite of the facilities, be it at Donnybrook or RDS. Better players, better opposition and more interesting competitions?

[Billsthoughts]

what are the celtic league attendances? feck all I imagine. what are the attendances in club rugby?
Irish people will turn up for the big games but wont go week in week out to see teams regardless how they are doing like they do elsewhere.
facilities in the eircom league are not half as bad as they are being made out. and nobody goes to games just cause the facilities are nice. good luck to bohs and their money but doubt it will have much of an impact.

[Stuttgart88]

what are the celtic league attendances? feck all I imagine. what are the attendances in club rugby?
Irish people will turn up for the big games but wont go week in week out to see teams regardless how they are doing like they do elsewhere.
facilities in the eircom league are not half as bad as they are being made out. and nobody goes to games just cause the facilities are nice. good luck to bohs and their money but doubt it will have much of an impact.

1. Celtic league attendances - you're probably right. Club attendances? I used to watch Terenure College in the 90s and it was in the hundreds at best, with the occasional exception.

2. True about facilities not making crowds by itself, but surely it's at least part of the package?

[Dodge]

celtic league attendances are brutal. Less than a couple of thousand. Facilities rubbish too

[Student Mullet]

I could add several GAA grounds too.

You could add every ground in the country except Croke Park. The facitities argument is weak. Crowds in this country depend mostly on the publicity surrounding a game and on the success of the team involved.

The only example of facilities improving crowds is in dog racing and the crowds in this case are largely attending a government subsadised bar and restaurant, it has little to do with sport. Anyone who expect crowds to flock to the new Dalymount because the bucket seats are more comfortable is kidding themselves.

[endabob1]

Munster 9-8 Border Reivers last week
"6,138-strong crowd"

Leinsters record was at the RDS against Munster 14,000 but that would be a one off I'd imagine. I still think they get a few thousand because they had to move the games from Donnybrook because the crowds were getting too big.

[pete]

Munster 9-8 Border Reivers last week
"6,138-strong crowd"big.

That was one of Munsters bigger Celtic League crowds. They normally only get big 10k+ crowds for Leinster or Ulster combined with Christmas holidays.

Connacht had 1,500 last week. I would be surprised if Leinster would get anything more than few thousand this week.

Donnybrook is worse than most eL grounds and Musgrave Park is worse than Turners Cross.

[Schumi]

Leinster would usually have 3-4,000 for games against foreign teams from the matches I've been at.

[endabob1]

I'd reckon Munster average about 5k
Leinster from Schumi's comments and my brother goes a fair bit problably about 4k
Connacht is a lot less because the population is less and the standard isn't as good (no internationals) maybe 2,000?
Ulster are fairly well supported from what I've seen and I know they sold a lot of season tickets this year, a mate goes to see them whenever he's back in Belfast reckons about the same as Munster 5/6k
They're all decent crowds (except Connacht) I think, wouldn't have thought that there are many EL clubs would turn down an average of 5,000 for every home game?

[Billsthoughts]

neither would many of the Irish rugby clubs....

[Leeza]

it is also a measure of progression. A side in the champions league will generally be held in high regard. I feel that this is not the next step for irish league clubs, an improvement in facilities will naturally provide better oppurtunites for young irish players to get to a better standard, strengthening the league. Spending money on wages, and foreign players in particular at this stage could be hugely damaging to the structure of irish football.

The whole problem with this theory is that our best players will just simply end up being shipped off to the UK. So really, none of us will benefit as our best young players will be strutting their stuff in the premier league / England

I don't see why so many EL-heads are so anxious about improving training facilities or our youth academies. I think the money should be spent on raising the profile of our league so that our best young players do stay here. If Bohs 'do a Rosenborg' (And with the money they have its very possible) we'll be able to keep our better players and then we should begin improving training facilities etc. Then the stadiums would gradually improve and like as in Norway, a spin off efect will occur where teams will begin to challange Rosenborg, or in this case Bohs.

[Soper]

If we have better young players staying here, then thye may well end up in England, but at least they will have gotten their clubs decent money

[Billsthoughts]

http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=532503&postcount=137


Good post here bout this....worth a read.

[Stuttgart88]

From that post:

But I bet you that if I could track that man down now, the Bath jersey would be well and truely buried in the bottom of his wardrobe/mind, and he'd be a Leinester supporter instead (helped by Bath beign sh!t now). Once a viable Irish option appeared for him, I bet you he embraced it.

Is this an endorsement of franchising? Presumably this Leinster fan had no local club which he could call his own, but once a larger, more identifiable and, let's face it, better option came along that's what it took to convert this type of fan.

[Dodge]

I'd go to the odd Leinster game but couldn't watch an AIL game. Wouldn't call myself a rugby fan though