Quotewhy do we need a player in a holding role? Its a myth.
both midfielders should be tracking back to help out when we dont have the ball.
Well who else can play the holiding role.
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why do we need a player in a holding role? Its a myth.
both midfielders should be tracking back to help out when we dont have the ball.
Ok, that's fair enough - but who? C'mon - if you're going to slaughter Staunton then offer us an alternative!! What would be your starting XI for the Cyprus game?Originally Posted by Billsthoughts
Did you watch the game then? Fair enough if you did but surely if you didn't you really aren't in a position to comment on any of the players' performances in that game.
What's a myth? What team doesn't play a holding midfielder?
every team in the history of football.
1)lets nip this slaughter stan lark in the bud straight away. the guy has lost three of his four games in charge.I think thats a valid starting point to question whats going on.maybe he will turn out to be a great manager. happy days for us all if he does. but at the moment I dont see what he has brought to the team that wasnt there before. in fact we seem to have gotten worse. its nothing personal. when he gets it right(and I think for the first 25 minutes against the germans he got it spot on) I will be as happy as everyone else.
2)as I said try other options. these two dont work and dont inspire confidance in the supporters.they keep giving the ball away and when you do that its not bad luck when you lose its an inevitibility.Its not my job to pick the team for the guy. he should be aware of what alternatives he has in midfield. Thats not a cop out. loads of midfielders have been named in other threads. some of them cant even make the squad! how many of them have had the amount of chances kilbane has had? can anyone ever remember o shea having a good game for ireland? I love kilbanes work rate and I think o shea is a classy footballer but I dont think either of them are working for ireland at the mo.
3)its irrelevant whether I saw the Liverpool v Spurs game or not. his team was beat 3-0. he is a striker so am saying he cant have been too spectacular given a strikers job is to score goals. I am not saying he is a poor player. he is one of the most skillfull players we have ever produced. but at some stage you gotta ask what is he actually contributing? maybe he is a victim of bad service but how many times has he been in goalscoring positions and tried something totally innapropriate instead of just sticking it in the back of the net. There is no way on earth that doyle is a better player than him but you would take doyle to score over keane any day of the week.
4)with regards the famous "holding midfielder" - there is no law that says we need to play one.we need two central midfielders that will work their socks off. If we stop giving the ball away so cheaply it wouldnt be such a big issue. If we were well organised it wouldnt be a problem. If everyone was commited to the cause it wouldnt be an issue.
Hardly a myth, more of a relatively recent phenonenon. When asked about this role, Giles has often stated that there was no designated holding player in the great Leeds team he played with, when he went forward, Bremner held back, and vice versa.
Just that as the game has evolved, it has become more and more of a defined role in midfield, a player staying back, intercepting forward passes from the opposition, breaking up attacks and spraying the ball out to wingers or the other, more attacking, central midfielder.
Personally I don't think a holder is necessary. It's a fad. A midfield pairing that complements each other & is well balanced is they key. Vieira & Petit is a great example. I heard it referred to as "piston like".
I think a model that we could look to is the Joey Barton / Stephen Ireland combo that worked well at City at times last year. A tireless runner who can play a bit to complement the guy who uses the ball intelligently.
I'm becoming more & more convinced though that there's barely a paring we can put out that's competitive so a midfield 3 may be the answer (see recent selections in other posts).
fad is a great word for it. like attacking wing backs.......(or whatever was all the rage when Macarthy took over)
Both midfielders should be able to do their job. you wouldnt call viera at arsenal "just" a holding midfielder or keane for ireland in his prime either. It just seems a way of justifying putting what is essentially a limited midfield player in your team.
Every team in the history or football has not played a holiding player.
Ok
makele played it
Keane in the Utd team held while Scholes went forward.
In modern day football a lot of teams have a more defensively minded player as part of the 2. Liverpool even have 2 players to do that job. Giles and Bremner were top class players and the game has changed so much. If you have an average midfield and team you need somebody who sits in front of the back four breaks up the play and gives a simple pass. Carsley has done this for Everton this season and 2 seasons ago. As a result Everton have been in good form as a result. When he was missing they struggled.
Total football is fine if you have good players but when you have average players defined roles become even more important. Jack Charlton thought we had average players and as a result liked to play centre backs in midfield. He was lucky that Mc Grath and Lawrenson were so good they could do it.
In Trap we trust
We dont have anyone of the calibre of Viera, Petit, Keane, Giles Bremner, Whelans, Souness, Robson or anybody near that at the moment. So defind roles are the best way forward for now in my view.
In Trap we trust
why?
if anything due to the limited players available we should be doing the opposite.
It seems very tough to get a central midfield partnership that'll work by one going forward while the other stays back at different times in the match. I always use this as an example but Lampard and Gerrard are both excellent midfielders but even the likes of Azerbaijan can dominate possession against them. I'd love nothing more than Gravesen and Jarosik to form a superb partnership at Celtic but I just can't see it happening.
You'd want to have real intelligient players if you're to do it like Frings and Ballack. Even then, Frings plays the holding role for Germany with the license to get forward from time to time. We do not have to players atm so a holding midfielder is essential imo.
I'm actually struggling to think of any team that doesn't play 1 specific player in the holding role.
Last edited by eirebhoy; 26/09/2006 at 11:51 AM.
We've got good wide players (Duff, McGeady, Andy Reid) but our centre is fairly soft so I tend to agree that we need a bit of bite in there, personally I would have Carsley in there with Stephen Reid, Carsley gets a nosebleed if he crosses the halfway line so it would give Reid more of a licence to get forward and support the front 2.
The issue as I saw in Germany was we were too defensive in the centre both O'Shea and Kilbane were too deep so Keane kept having to come deep looking for ball, it left Doyle isolated and we ended up just hoofing long balls to a lonely striker.
I can see Stauntons point in not bringing Kiely back but Carsley would have been a shoe in for me, at the moment him and Steven Reid are our best central midfielders.
emm is this not just being a midfielder?
It's arguably the most important position on the pitch. You can be an excellent central midfielder but that doesn't mean you're going to be an excellent holding midfielder. Anyway, can you think of any current team that doesn't play a holding midfielder regularly?
ffs man
all you are doing is defining a midfielders role.
no I cant pick any team that plays without a midfield if that is the question you are asking..
you could probably tell me who plays midfield and what their specific midfield roles are in every team in the world but ya couldnt actually go out and play midfield if you were asked to.
I will say it again.
Both midfielders should be able to play the position they are supposed to. its not a case of one takes half and the other does the other half.
This is the point I am making. Look at any team and I think you'll find that is exactly the case. Every team I can think of plays a holding midfielder. I can't think of one team that play 2 central midfielders who have the exact same role. It's the same with the defence. One defender will lead the line and organise defence. It's not as simple as saying "you play centre mid Jim".
Last edited by eirebhoy; 26/09/2006 at 1:19 PM.
Things are as simple or as complicated as you choose to make them... I dont think you know what you are on about and you think the same bout me. lets leave it at that. Am beyond caring at this stage..
its irrelevant anyway as Carsley(the answer to all our holding midfielder wet dreams) is not going to play for us again.
Vieira was never a holder, nor was Petit. Great partnership though.
I'd argue that Keane was never a holding midfielder either, he was far far more than that. The Barton/Ireland example I've cited before was an effective partnership but there's no way you can call either a holding midfielder.
If we had one, we'd play one. But we don't, so we should look at alternatives. Just give me a guy who can put himself about & who is comfortable on the ball (Douglas? but not Kilbane) and a guy who can use the ball (we've several half-decent options here). Let them develop an understanding.
The more I read above, the more I'm believing in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-1-2 to solve our midfield problems. If we don't have a pairing that's competitive, give them a hand.
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