"Norn Iron"?

[CollegeTillIDie]

As a further additive to the points being made about Gaelic culture and religion....
The whole Idea of Irish Republicanism in the first place was thought up by Presbyterians, such as Henry Joy McCracken, in the 18th Century. This whole religion=national identity ball ox came about in the late 19th Century.

[dcfcsteve]

As a further additive to the points being made about Gaelic culture and religion....
The whole Idea of Irish Republicanism in the first place was thought up by Presbyterians, such as Henry Joy McCracken, in the 18th Century. This whole religion=national identity ball ox came about in the late 19th Century.

It started around the time of the Act of Union (very early 19th Century), when the English did their usual 'divide and rule' strategy.

Rights that had previously been the exclusive preserve of Anglicans were transferred also to Dissenting Protestants (i.e. non-Anglicans). That made it a clear case of Protestants v Catholics in terms of the social fracture, with the newly united Protestants combined in their support of the English connection which guaranteed and legitimised their ascendency. 1798 was the last time any protestant groups as a whole had sided with the Catholics in pursuit of a secular republic.

The revival of Gaelic culture in the late 19th Century, combined with the growth of the concept of 'nationalism' throughout Europe, lead to the two ideologies/issues inevitably being conjoined from then on. But the fracture along religious lines had already happened decades before then.

Some of the most intractable social conflicts in the world to this date began primarily with the utilisation of such 'divide and rule' policies by the English. Think Israel-Palestine, Cyprus, Northern Ireland and Iraq to some extent.

Anyhoo - hopefully somer day the Protestant community in general, and Presbyterians in particular, will feel more comfortable with reclaiming a very rich heritage that is just as much theirs as it is the Catholics.

[BohsPartisan]

bit off topic but just to get the attention of the northern lads to this thread on the Belfast Giants

[Dassa]

Anyhoo - hopefully somer day the Protestant community in general, and Presbyterians in particular, will feel more comfortable with reclaiming a very rich heritage that is just as much theirs as it is the Catholics.

many people are, I specifically remember a presbyterian church up here, doing something about mccracken maybe few years back.I believe that people understand their history but accept that times have changed and what their relatives from back then thought isnt the same now, that type of nationalism wasnt specifically about the protestant/RC split like it is percieved to be now.

[David]

It started around the time of the Act of Union (very early 19th Century), when the English did their usual 'divide and rule' strategy.

Rights that had previously been the exclusive preserve of Anglicans were transferred also to Dissenting Protestants (i.e. non-Anglicans). That made it a clear case of Protestants v Catholics in terms of the social fracture, with the newly united Protestants combined in their support of the English connection which guaranteed and legitimised their ascendency. 1798 was the last time any protestant groups as a whole had sided with the Catholics in pursuit of a secular republic.

The revival of Gaelic culture in the late 19th Century, combined with the growth of the concept of 'nationalism' throughout Europe, lead to the two ideologies/issues inevitably being conjoined from then on. But the fracture along religious lines had already happened decades before then.

Some of the most intractable social conflicts in the world to this date began primarily with the utilisation of such 'divide and rule' policies by the English. Think Israel-Palestine, Cyprus, Northern Ireland and Iraq to some extent.

Anyhoo - hopefully somer day the Protestant community in general, and Presbyterians in particular, will feel more comfortable with reclaiming a very rich heritage that is just as much theirs as it is the Catholics.

As far as the Gaelic language goes I think it has been turned into a political football. Each to their own but Gaelic, like Ulster Scots, is a language I would have no desire to learn. I would want to learn a language to communicate with people that I cannot communicate with now and neither of these languages really enable me to do that as the very vast majority of speakers of either language also speak English. Each to their own, if people want to learn them then do so but I am certainly against the amount of public money being thrown at either or both.

[BohsPartisan]

As far as the Gaelic language goes I think it has been turned into a political football. Each to their own but Gaelic, like Ulster Scots, is a language I would have no desire to learn. I would want to learn a language to communicate with people that I cannot communicate with now and neither of these languages really enable me to do that as the very vast majority of speakers of either language also speak English. Each to their own, if people want to learn them then do so but I am certainly against the amount of public money being thrown at either or both.

A lot of people down south have no interest in learning them either.
Personally I think it would be a bad thing for either of those languages to become extinct as they are part of our heritage and helped shape our culture and society but like yourself I couldn't be bothered learning Irish. I was rubbish at it in school mainly because of a serious lack of interest in it.
What I am interested in is how those languages shaped the type of English we speak. There is an interesting reference book called A Dictionary of Hiberno-English by T.P. Dolan.

[dcfcsteve]

As far as the Gaelic language goes I think it has been turned into a political football. Each to their own but Gaelic, like Ulster Scots, is a language I would have no desire to learn. I would want to learn a language to communicate with people that I cannot communicate with now and neither of these languages really enable me to do that as the very vast majority of speakers of either language also speak English. Each to their own, if people want to learn them then do so but I am certainly against the amount of public money being thrown at either or both.

I agree wth you on the political football bit, which is a huge shame.

However - the best way to stop someone using something against you is to claim/reclaim it for yourself. Hence, previously offensive words like 'fag' and to some extent '******' have had a lot of their venom removed by their utilisation by the communities they were previously used to hurt.

If sections of the Protestant community reclaimed Irish, it would prevent the Shinners form using it as their own exclusive political play-thing, and help remove the whole politicisation of it. Wishful thinking I fear though..

As for the value of languages, I understand your view but I'm afarid I don't accept it. Languages are livng things - yes, even Irish - and their fortunes can improve as well as decline with time. 50 years ago you coiuld have said what was the point in learning Hebrew or Basque, but both are much more vibrant langauges now than they were then. In Hebrew's case it has been literally resurrected from the dead. In fact - what is the point of learning any language really apart from English and perhaps Spanish and French, as those 3 will enable you to communuicate with the vast majority of people you're ever likely to encounter in your life.

As for Ulster Scots, I'm a huge advocate of linguistic diversity. However, I find it disappointing and frankly ridiculous that a certain section of the protestant community has taken an old, essentially extinct dialect of English and used the peace process to have their play-thing elevated to language-status in order to create their own political football to throw-back Dodgeball-style in the face of the Irish Language. Even within the grossly petty history of politics in NI, that is a new low in terms of patheticness. I have no problems with activities to study, preserve and promote the Ullans dialect, but to pretend that it's a language and commit public money to it on that basis is the real affrontery in Northern Irish politico-linguistics.

[Poor Student]

Interesting as the matters may be, this would be better discussed in the current affairs forum.