Supporting British teams

[dcfcsteve]

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i think a lot of them follow both teams and 75000 at the fulham games shows your stance,which i understand is not a general one

Not true at all RD. That would be like saying fans of AFC Wimbledon also follow MK Dons..... !

Both clubs were set-up by fans who felt their own clubs were being taken away from them. Both sets of fans now tend to despise their former clubs - you don't just turn your back on a team you've supported for years because you feel they've driven you away, and then still maintain warm feelings towards them.

There may be the odd Man U fan who goes to the very odd FC United game. But they would be first and foremost fans of Glazier FC, and chances are they wouldn't be that huge Man U fans anyway (if only because there is often a fixtures clash). The 2 teams are ideological oppsites. You're almost as likely to go watch both Celtic and Rangers as you are both Man United and FC United, and AFC Wimbledon/MK Disgrace.

[bennocelt]

The idea that English people support their local team is a complete fallacy, walk around any provincial own in Britain and you will see Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd shirts outnumbering the local teams.
I lived in London for 10 years and went to Spurs as a member/season ticket holder/casual fan in that time I met fans from all over the country & the world at games. My nephew lives in London, 'supports' Newcastle but actually is a season ticket holder for a smaller London club.

The idea that if you don't support your local team you are inferior to those that do is rubbish, support who you want, there doesn't have to be any ryhme or reason to it, go and see them as often as you can. If you can't go and see them go and see someone else if you fancy it.

EL fans telling me that I can't support Spurs or whoever because I wasn't born within a stones throw of White Hart Lane is as bad as Sky telling me I must support a premier league club or I'll be a social parriah and end up with no friends.
Use your own brain, use your own values and don't be dictated to by anyone else.

but thats not true, if you look at the attendances of championship and league games, a lot of them are over 10,000, in the lower leagues some teams get well over 5000..................any eircom team would love to get these kind of attendances

"i liked the colour of the shirt so i choose them"
"i first saw them on tv when i was 8"
and other silly reasons for supporting british teams

supporting an irish and english team..............
its like having a girlfriend AND a wife, you cant have the 2 , sure you can kid yourself but your onyl foolin yourself

[bennocelt]

Oddly I was walking through Dublin on a balmy March day this year when I came across a load of lads, with a sizeable amount of them in Rovers jerseys, tearing up O'Connell St and hurling anything they could find at the local guards because a group from the North wanted to march down the street. I thought it was pretty pathetic myself, but hey if they're part of the community more power to them eh?

that group that wanted to "march" werent exactly the legion of mary

[crc]

supporting an irish and english team..............
its like having a girlfriend AND a wife...

I like this analogy. Some people (like myself) try the long-distance relationship. It may work, or it may not, but you may find yourself having a little bit on the side (I have been known to go to the 'Cross)!

You can try and keep the two apart (this works better if they are in different countries), but you know that evetually, some day, there will be a clash. When this day arrives, you have to chose the wife or the girlfriend.

[Plastic Paddy]

Irish people actively supporting British football as their first, true love, as if he team was "theirs", is completely and utterly absurd.

How very simplistic and - to borrow a word - absurd.

You know who my club is. To borrow another of your outpourings, it's because their ethos fits with my identity and weltanschauung. The club just happens to be based 400 miles from where I live. I'd like to see you try and explain your position to the several thousand from the six counties that cross the Irish Sea to CP every fortnight. At best your view is reductionist and at worst dismissive of an entirely valid, if somewhat alternative, stance on football support. Such Blairite arrogance from a self-confessed Liberal Democrat!

But then your statement opens another can of worms, does it not? Like NY Hoop's assertion that he's not British so therefore doesn't support a British club, it rubbishes by implication the claims of those of us in the diaspora to Irish identity and citizenship. Although, looking at it another way, maybe Celtic is my nearest "Irish" team. The club certainly represents my aspirations in that respect far, far better and more completely than any eL side ever has.

There may be the odd Man U fan who goes to the very odd FC United game.

According to a recent story in the Non-League Paper about 1,500 of the 2,500 FCUM regulars also watch "big United" when they play.

PP

[superfrank]

Seemed to me that the root of his issue was more to do with England than to do with following foreign teams.

Agreed. That what it seems to me to be also.

[Poor Student]

According to a recent story in the Non-League Paper about 1,500 of the 2,500 FCUM regulars also watch "big United" when they play. That would give the lie to your claim, no?

PP

I thought it was fairly well known that a lot of Man U fans also go to FCUM to capture that nostalgic old school football atmosphere that you don't get in modern all seater stadia at the top level.

[dcfcsteve]

How very simplistic and - to borrow a word - absurd.

You know who my club is. To borrow another of your outpourings, it's because their ethos fits with my identity and weltanschauung. The club just happens to be based 400 miles from where I live. I'd like to see you try and explain your position to the several thousand from the six counties that cross the Irish Sea to CP every fortnight. At best your view is reductionist and at worst dismissive of an entirely valid, if somewhat alternative, stance on football support. Such Blairite arrogance from a self-confessed Liberal Democrat!

But then your statement opens another can of worms, does it not? Like NY Hoop's assertion that he's not British so therefore doesn't support a British club, it rubbishes by implication the claims of those of us in the diaspora to Irish identity and citizenship. Although, looking at it another way, maybe Celtic is my nearest "Irish" team. The club certainly represents my aspirations in that respect far, far better and more completely than any eL side ever has.

I'm not saying it is absurd in my opinion. I am saying that it is self-evidently absurd. Just like grass is self-evidently green, regardless of my opinion. There is a big dfference. And I firmly believe that anyone who looks at the situation objectively can't fail but come to a similar conclusion.

Now - you're an unusual situation PP, as you're 2nd generation Irish. Celtic are also an unusual example, as they have a very strong Irish heritage. So I'll leave those 2 things aside for the moment, and just tackle the broad concept of Irish poeple supporting foreign/British teams over and above any others.

If you engage in conversation with an Irish person on why they support a foreign team (from any country) first and foremost, and why this invariably involved knocking domestic football to ease any sense of guilt in doing so, you get the usual list of reasons why :

- They liked the kit of "their" team when they were a kid.
- They once had an Irish player or two.
- They were the best team and won stuff when they were young.
- A friend was really into them, so they got into them to.
- Irish football is rubbish.
- EL stadiums are rubbish.

If you look at the many reasons Irish people give for turning their backs on Irish soccer in favour of foreign teams, none of those examples is applicable in any other sport that Irish people follow.

Let's start with GAA. There are plenty of p!ss-poor GAA counties - make-weights who'll never be able to mix it with the big boys. Counties like Leitrim, Roscommon, Monaghan, Longford, Fermanagh, Wexford, Wicklow, Laois, Louth, Carlow, Waterford, even Sligo. Over time they'll occassionally get a crop of good players and challenge for a provincial title or underage honours (e.g. Louth, Laois and Fermanagh recently), but they won't win the all-Ireland in either code and will eventually go back to GAA obscurity again. That's over a third of the counties in Ireland who you could bet your house on not winning any major GAA trophy any time soon. So then - do the people who live in that long list of counties then decide, for example, "Leitrim's rubbish - I'm a Kerry supporter now !" . Would they turn their nose up at the relatively spartan condition of grounds like Parc Sean Mac Diarmada in favour of the sumptuous luxury of Croke Park ? Take Carlow for example - a team that wears what is possibly the ugliest sports top in the world, ever. Do the good people of Hacketstown, Tullow and Leighlinbridge decide to support Cork because 'they've got a nicer kit'...?

Take the Olympics. Ireland have always been pish, bar the odd sport like boxing. So do Irish people in their droves decide to castigate the Irish Olympic reps as rubbish, and instead cheer on China, Russia or the US ?

Or how about rugby ? Rugby is a more interesting example, as before the provincial set-up was introduced in Ireland there was a yawning gap between the standard of our clubs and that of the entrants from otehr countries into the European tournaments. Hence why we created the provincial structure. Anecdotaly, when I was over in Dublin for the 1995 FAI Cup Final, I got talking to a lad at a bus stop who was wearing a Bath rugby jersey. I was living in Bath at the time, and to my genuine surprise he was a Dubliner, who just really liked Bath. Now - back then that was very easy. Bath were by-far the best team in Englihs, if not European, rugby, and the provincial structure was a mere fledgling. But I bet you that if I could track that man down now, the Bath jersey would be well and truely buried in the bottom of his wardrobe/mind, and he'd be a Leinester supporter instead (helped by Bath beign sh!t now). Once a viable Irish option appeared for him, I bet you he embraced it.

In every sport Irish people support their own. Every single sport - bar football. And this is what makes it abusrd and nigh-on impossible to justify. At some point a huge psychological schism developed between Irish people and Irish football, and in their droves they instead adopted foreign teams as if they were their local side. There will be a plethora of reasons for this, and I'm sure there's one hell of a PhD in it, but it happened nonetheless. Irish people now follow dreary English cities that they have no connection to and they couldn't even pinpoint on a map, as closely as they woudl their own county in GAA. Yet the reasons they reel out for why they've turned their back on Irish football to supprt the foreign version are 'rules' that they will ONLY apply to football. That is what makes it all so absurd. If you're into supporting teams only because they're good, or have a nice kit, or because they once had a high profile players, then fine. But how can someone so vehemently justify following such rules in football, but not any other sport. That is what makes it all so self-evidently absurd.

Briefly on Celtic - they are perhaps unique in European football (along with the Assyrian team in Sweden and one or two lower league examples elsewhere) for having a very strong extra-juridicial heritage. But there are 2 other Scottish teams that also have an Irish heritage - one of whom has had it for longer than Celtic (Hibs). So why do Irish people almost exclusively support only one Scottish team team with a strong Irish heritage and not another ? Could it be that reasons other than pure heritage are at play ? Also - there are over 30 senior teams on the island of Ireland who don't just have an Irish heritage - they are Irish ! If the presence of an Irish heritage is such a strong motivator for Irish poeple to support a team like Celtic, then why do they simultaneously ignore such factors it when it comes to those 30+ senior teams who are Irish ? Irish people choosing to support Celtic over an Irish team would be akin to neglecting your own family and focusing your energies instead on supporting the family of your 2nd cousin. It's peoples choice to do so, but on any objective reading it is difficult to explain/justify....

According to a recent story in the Non League Paper about 1,500 of the 2,500 FCUM regulars also watch "big United" when they play. That would give the lie to your claim, no?

PP

I can only go on my experience of FCUM on the occassions I've seen them play home and away. From speaking to a decent numbers of the fans, home and away, the impression I got was that there is a lot less cross-over than that article seems to suggest. However, I will bow to NLP as being more informed than me on things like this.

However, given the inevitable schedule clashes between the 2 teams one would have to wonder how strong a fan of Man United someone was who went to Bury rather than Old Trafford or a Man U away game.

P.S. Try and leave the personal abuse out of any response....

[hoops1]

Cracking post DCFC
Probaby your best post ever
I would just have to add to that that I dont think the people you
are referring to have an understanding of the game in the same
way as 'ourselves'

[fc hammer]

Cracking post DCFC
Probaby your best post ever
I would just have to add to that that I dont think the people you
are referring to have an understanding of the game in the same
way as 'ourselves'

Well said hoops1 could'nt agree with you more.. See ye all tommorrow in Tolka.

[De Town]

As with most others, don't mind people supporting British teams once they support the eL aswell.

My teams:

1 LTFC
2 Man U
3 Barca

Always look out for Gillingham (LTFC got 2 of their players on loan a few seasons ago, always looked out for their results since), Ross County (My name's Ross ), St. Mirren (My dad was born down the road from their stadium).

[dancinpants]

Excellent post DCFCSteve. Anyone that tries to argue it is pathetic.

IF YOU ARE IRISH, SUPPORT IRISH

IF YOU ARE BRITISH, SUPPORT BRITISH

[osarusan]

Anyone that tries to argue it is pathetic.

The cornerstone of any debate.

[Plastic Paddy]

Now - you're an unusual situation PP, as you're 2nd generation Irish. Celtic are also an unusual example, as they have a very strong Irish heritage. So I'll leave those 2 things aside for the moment, and just tackle the broad concept of Irish poeple supporting foreign/British teams over and above any others.

A "special case" indeed. That's why there are considered to be some 10 million 2G people in the diaspora and only 5.5 million in all of Ireland today (a recent British Association of Irish Studies estimate). Of those 10m, a fair proportion (let's say 10% for the sake of debate) will consider themselves Irish. That's a lot of Irish who don't fall into the pattern you suggest. Who's Kevin Kilbane's "local" team, eh?

In any case Steve you still haven't addressed those Irish from the North who eschew patronage of their local teams like Ballymena, Dungannon Swifts and Coleraine in favour of trips across the Irish Sea to Celtic Park. Are they a "special case" too?

Try and leave the personal abuse out of any response....

Personal abuse? The reference to Blairite arrogance was just a bit of fun. I enjoy the verbal jousting with you Steve and certainly wouldn't wish it to descend into the realms of personal abuse. Sorry if that's how it came across.

Excellent post DCFCSteve. Anyone that tries to argue it is pathetic.

IF YOU ARE IRISH, SUPPORT IRISH

IF YOU ARE BRITISH, SUPPORT BRITISH

When DCS made the point (far more eloquently than you) I referred to it as simplistic. For you, I think "simple" is a far more apt description.

PP

[Peadar]

Had the radio on yesterday evening and there's this phone-in on TodayFM where they talk about the Premiership games of the day.
Some sorry soul from Limerick rang in to express his despair at the performances of Liverpool under Rafa.
We this and we that, to paraphrase, he said that if Rafa didn't know what his best team was, the Anfield faithful wouldn't be long telling him.

Anyone who gets upset about Irish people supporting British teams should avoid this show.

What makes me laugh is that these eejits think by ringing in to a radio station in Dublin, they're going to resolve the issues of their Premiership team in England.
On a side note, how anyone can tolerate listening to Michael McMullen is beyond me.

[Soper]

On a seperate note, it was terrible here yesterday morning for the 'derby'.Dirty red shirts with 'Steveeee Gerawwddd' on the back all over the place.

[dcfcsteve]

A "special case" indeed. That's why there are considered to be some 10 million 2G people in the diaspora and only 5.5 million in all of Ireland today (a recent British Association of Irish Studies estimate). Of those 10m, a fair proportion (let's say 10% for the sake of debate) will consider themselves Irish. That's a lot of Irish who don't fall into the pattern you suggest. Who's Kevin Kilbane's "local" team, eh?

Kevin Kilbane's local team is, I believe, Preston. Not sure why you needed to ask . The fact that he's 2nd or 3rd generation Irish doesnt stop that. Due to his Irish background, it wouldbe perfectly understandable if he had a strong preference for an Irish team. Though as most Irsh people don't even have that, I'd be bloody shocked if a Preston-born 2G did.

In any case Steve you still haven't addressed those Irish from the North who eschew patronage of their local teams like Ballymena, Dungannon Swifts and Coleraine in favour of trips across the Irish Sea to Celtic Park. Are they a "special case" too?

The situation is very clear PP. To support a team like Celtic because of their Irish heritage, whilst at the same time turning your back on the numerous teams who actually are Irish is nothing short of absurd ! It really is. If you want to support a team with an Irish connection, why the feck not support one in Ireland ?!? If you picked those teams to suggest what should a nationalist do if their local side has a perceived unionist/British ethose, then the answer surely isn't to pick a British team to support is it ? If you're going to look for a team outside of your area with an Irish ethos, there are still plenty of teams on the island iof Ireland you could chose ! This shows the whole lie behind the 'Irish heritage' excuse Irish people wheel out to justify turning their back on Irish football in support of the fioreign game. There's nothing wrong with supporting Celtic per se, but if an Irish person chooses to do so to the detriment of Irish teams then they should at least not have the shameless cheek to try to explain their actions by reference to the appeal of 'Irishness'.

This absurd behaviour is usually justified along the whole "Celtic aren't British, their Irish", and "I love Ireland, me - that's why I support Celtic....!" attitude I got into a very heated debate with a Dub Celtic fan in Stuttgart, who said, and I quote, that I'm "a disgrace to my country" for not supporting Celtic because they're a British team !! Read that again - the Irish man supporting Irish football is a disgrace to Ireland, whilst the Irish man who has turned his back on Irish football to support a foreign team is not ! Only in Ireland would we be faced with such absurd logic.....

Personal abuse? The reference to Blairite arrogance was just a bit of fun. I enjoy the verbal jousting with you Steve and certainly wouldn't wish it to descend into the realms of personal abuse. Sorry if that's how it came across.

Sorry dude - thought you were having a pop there.

[BohsPartisan]

On a seperate note, it was terrible here yesterday morning for the 'derby'.Dirty red shirts with 'Steveeee Gerawwddd' on the back all over the place.

Well they were crying into their pints by half two.

[BohDiddley]

To support a team like Celtic because of their Irish heritage, whilst at the same time turning your back on the numerous teams who actually are Irish is nothing short of absurd !

Nicely put.
I think that what's happening here is not support of a foreign team simply for their heavily-marketed Irishness. It's because it's a chance to display Irishness in an international setting. This familiar pattern isn't about being Irish locally; it's about being Irish for foreign (usually British) consumption, and is part of our post-colonial syndrome. In short, it's stage Irishness. Which truly is, in 2006, absurd.
Edit: stuck a link to DCFCSteve's original post on Bohsnews. Now there's an endorsement!

[Poor Student]

For less money you could be in the Olimpco, Millentor, Camp Nou etc with Ryanair.

For less money than what? Than going to an EPL game? So what? You're either going to an eL game or a game abroad, what's the difference if it's on the continent or in England?