What do we do about our midfield?

[German_Tim]

If I was Staunton, I'd pull Robbie Keane back in the midfield and play this way:


------------------Given

Finnan------O'Brien-------Dunne-------Harte

--------------------Reid

McGeady-----------------------------Duff

--------------------Keane

-------------Doyle-----------Morrison




Btw: Here the markings of the famous German football magazine "Kicker" (somehow I can't understand the bad ratings for Lahm, Frings, Doyle & O'Brien, who IMO deserved better marks - Kilbane & O'Shea can be happy with a 4, I think):

1 = great
2= good
3= satisfying
4= sufficient
5= deficient
6=insufficient


Deutschland: Lehmann (4) - Lahm (3), A. Friedrich (3), M. Friedrich (2,5), Jansen (3,5) - B. Schneider (2,5), Frings (3,5), Ballack (4,5), Schweinsteiger (3) - Klose (3), Podolski (3,5)

Trainer: Löw


Irland: Given (1,5) - Carr (4), An. O'Brien (4,5), Dunne (2,5), Finnan (3,5) - S. Reid (3), O'Shea (4), Kilbane (4), Duff (4) - Keane (3,5), Doyle (4)

Trainer: Staunton



Good night.

[Volcán Masaya]

If I was Staunton, I'd pull Robbie Keane back in the midfield and play this way:


------------------Given

Harte------O'Brien-------Dunne-------Finnan

--------------------Reid

McGeady-----------------------------Duff

--------------------Keane

-------------Doyle-----------Morrison

Harte at LB?

If you're going to play Keane in more of a withdrawn attacking midfielder role, then you're basically playing a 4-3-1-2. In that setup you can't really play two out and out wingers as you're putting way too much work on the DM (Reid in this case). Opponents would come barelling right down the middle. You need a DM, two solid central midfielders with the fullbacks taking up some of the role of the wingers and getting the crosses in (which both Carr and Finnan are well capable off, but Finnan out of place compromises that somewhat).

I don't know if we really have the players to pull it off.

Also, we're not using two of our most skillful players in that setup, Duff and McGeady (granted Duff leaves a lot to be desired recently).

a 4-5-1 (4-2-3-1) might be worth a shot, with the wide players switching. (Kind of like Mourinho's line-up's the last two seasons).

------------------Given

Carr------O'Brien-------Dunne-------Finnan

--------------Reid ----Carsley/O'Shea

McGeady------------Keane-----------------Duff

----------------- -- Doyle-----

[youngirish]

I dont think we can qualify with a midfield with O'Shea or Kilbane but do we have any other options?Is McPhail worth a chance?Apart from Gibson(Man utd) and Garvan(Ipswich) who are both too young we dont seem to have anybody coming through.

If there's one position we do have a deluge of players coming through it's central midfield. In addition to the ones you mentioned J O'Brien is a midfield player, Stephen Ireland, Chris Mc Cann and Michael Timlin, all are very young and all bar Timlin are getting regular games for their clubs. If pre-season is anything to go by Timlin will get his chance in the Fulham team before long too (probably the Carling Cup).

Give it a year and I'm sure one or two of the above will be good enough and there'll be no more need for O'Shea (hopefully). However you are right about not being able to do anything quick enough for this campaign unless O'Brien can play for Bolton in midfield regularly this season instead of as a full back.

[Stuttgart88]

The most frustrating aspect of all this though is that we're at the mercy of a foreign system run by corrupt tycoons and spiv managers who take a short-term approach to everything. They'd much rather buy talent & skim fees for themselves than nurture it. I asked the question, somewhat in naive hope, a few months ago that could Sunderland's Irish ownership at least provide a platform to develop Irish talent. Maybe it will.

If our football system could be more self-sufficient I'd be far more confident that a higher proportion of our talented players would fulfill their potential. I'd hazard a guess that instead of sending players to Antwerp or wherever, if some MUFC reserves played in Ireland for a bit it'd attract more attention from the anglophiles.

4-4-2 of Duff, S. Reid, A. Reid (or Miller) and McGeady looks best to me.

With regard to the comments about central midfield's inadequacies putting more pressure (and allowing extra marking) on Duff, I also think that a natural overlapping left footer at full back would ease Duff's burden too.

I'm critcal of Staunton's central midfield selection but given the job at hand for last weekend I'm supportive of the Finnan LB / Carr RB selection. I wouldn't be happy with it going forward though. If a defensive midfield is required I'd be happy to see Carr RHM in front of Finnan at RB. My worry is that a deal has been struck with Carr though.

[casso36]

If there's one position we do have a deluge of players coming through it's central midfield. In addition to the ones you mentioned J O'Brien is a midfield player, Stephen Ireland, Chris Mc Cann and Michael Timlin, all are very young and all bar Timlin are getting regular games for their clubs. If pre-season is anything to go by Timlin will get his chance in the Fulham team before long too (probably the Carling Cup).

Give it a year and I'm sure one or two of the above will be good enough and there'll be no more need for O'Shea (hopefully). However you are right about not being able to do anything quick enough for this campaign unless O'Brien can play for Bolton in midfield regularly this season instead of as a full back.

They'll never be good enough if they don't play!!! I thought the whole Staunton idea was to rebuild? Face it we all know that we won't qualify for the Euro2008 finals! He needs to play the youth coming through and see what they are made off, and if they are good enough.

If not we're screwed for the forseeable future!! Need new blood. Why not play the new ones coming up and blood them now and maybe in 4 years time will will be able to compete properly!!

[Stuttgart88]

As 5th seeds?

[dr_peepee]

As much as I want/hope the like of O'Brien and Ireland etc progress as players I don't think they are the answer to our midfield problem.

We need a defensive midfielder comfortable in posession. O'Shea is coping well in a defensive roll at UTD because he's surrounded by the quality that he doesn't have to actually "play" too much football once he breaks up play. Unfortunately he doesn't have that luxury for Ireland, which is why his flaws are far more evident playing for us. Even Hargreaves for England plays a similar roll. Some people have called for a return for Carsley, but having seen him for Everton I think he would be as exposed as O'Shea in our current squad.

I've said already that I think we need to cast the net wider to find the best foil for Steven Reid, even down a division to the like of McPhail, Whelan. (I've not seen them so I can't actually say if they're better than what we have)

As duff is being doubled up on maybe it's time to include McGeady regularly to expose the space created by the attention to Duff. I quite like the look of a team in a previous thread where McGeady, Keane, Duff played behind Doyle suported by the back four from Sat, Steven Reid plus ONE. It's actually not too different to the team that started against Sweden. But as I said I think the player playing beside Reid is the key to how it all works.

[German_Tim]

a 4-5-1 (4-2-3-1) might be worth a shot, with the wide players switching. (Kind of like Mourinho's line-up's the last two seasons).

------------------Given

Carr------O'Brien-------Dunne-------Finnan

--------------Reid ----Carsley/O'Shea

McGeady------------Keane-----------------Duff

----------------- -- Doyle-----

I think you won't manage to defeat the Czechs with only 1 striker. A 4:2:3:1 system surely is very popular these days...but at home I'd always play with at least 2 strikers (4:4:2 or 4:3:3) in order to create pressure on the opponent's defence!

Well, it's Staunton's decision...so we'll see what is gonna happen. Fact is, that you won't beat the Czechs & Slowakians (who have strong players like Mintal or Vittek - the "heart" of the Nuremberg Bundesliga team) without an improvement in midfield and attack!


PS: Why should Harte not play LB? IMO he's better than Carr, so Finnan could play his right position RB.

[geysir]

I don't agree with both McGeady and Duff being selected.
With our front two, we need one of the midfielders who can spot/anticipate the runs of Doyle and Keane and find them with a lucious pass, not a hopeful punt or just a cross from the corner flag
For that reason I wouldn't have both Duff and McGeady at LM and RM respectivly.
I would rather have Ireland, A Reid, Mc Phail or Miller at Right midf.
with a licence to pass the killer balls.

For a midfield anchor, atm, there is only Carsley or O'Shea.
Central midf. Reid or Reid
left midf. Duff or McGeady

The $64k Q is will Stan persist with KK? It's time for Bobby's input. You could surmise that whatever hopes we have are enjoined with Bobby's fate.

[plasticpitch]

just a point with regard to kevin doyle. his manager at reading has said that his best football is played when he picks the ball up deep and creates... a wayne rooney if ya like. if we were to play with one striker i think it would have to be him dropping deep. at least he holds the ball up . it was great to see him beat 3 germans in one run he had. problem is he was isolated all the time. how do we solve this problem

[Stuttgart88]

In the aftermath of Roy Keane's first retirement I felt that a 3-5-2 might be a solution.

My thinking was we had players with talent like Duff, Andy Reid, Robbie etc. but who we struggled to get involved, so add an extra man where it counts - either in the engine room, or further forward.

I've been hammered on this forum before for suggesting it. The Aussies and Croats used something along these lines in the WC. I saw the Aussies first hand & they were so well drilled by Hiddink. 3 big lads at the back, Grella permanently in front. We don't have a Grella but I reckon in about 7 positions we have better players, or at least as good.

Wales cover up for their inadequacies by doing the same.

The only time we tried something similar we botched it. Wrong players and no real understanding from management how it works.

I'd just love to see us tactically adaptable enough to at least use it as a plan B to either break down a defence minded minnow at home, or try and recover a deficit away, like on Saturday.

But deep down I don't think drastic action is required. Playing central midfielders in central midfield is where I'd start!

[NeilMcD]

Good post, Stuttgart I think in a lot of the hype surrounding saturday the main thing is that our central midfield needs to be sorted. As I said on another thread its the engine room and thats where you start first.

[Stuttgart88]

If a Kevin Nolan or Tim Cahill type player was available to us we'd be in much better shape.

A natural central midfielder has a central midfielder's instinct & awareness. He's naturally comfortable in that area of the pitch, and knows where to be, when to carry the ball, when to lay it off and when to play a final ball. O'Shea doesn't have these instincts. He's been brought up as a defender. Kilbane doesn't either. He's a limited but game & willing left winger. Every now & again they'll get it right but that's not good enough.

Whilst preferable, I don't think it's essential we have a holder & and a playmaker. A ball winner & a ball user combo would be just as good.

Douglas & Miller actually made a decent fist of central midfield in the second half against the Dutch. Neither is a world beater but I think it showed that having two players naturally equipped for the role is better than two makeshifts.

Graham Kavanagh is a genuinely natural central midfielder. But since his recall by Kerr I've only rated two of his performances - home to Cyprus & the Brazil friendly. Everything else has been a disappointment. He doesn't look like the answer, not even as a stop gap.

I think it's criminal that after 5 years in the Irish set up nobody really knows what Steven Reid is like in this position for Ireland. I thought he was good against Sweden and poor against Holland and I'm not sure I can remember another game where he started here.

There must be a combination of proper midfielders that can perform effectively.

This is how I see the candidates:


Steven Reid - athletic and comfortable in the middle. Great ball striker but lacks finesse.
Andy Reid - talent, vision & awareness. Lacks athleticism?
Alan Quinn - there's something about this guy I like. Busy, industrious and comfortable in the middle. Always looking to develop play.
Jonathon Douglas - puts himself about and full of energy. That's about all I've noticed of him though. Gets some goals for Leeds but I've seen him miss good chances too. At least he gets forward though.
Liam Miller - all the skill in the world but lacks presence. Villareal away will always stick in my mind. Maybe Steven Reid can cover for his weakness.
Graham Kavanagh - has the brain for the role but not the legs
Stephen Ireland - lots of talent but lightweight. Joey Barton complements him well at City. Who can do that for us? Steven Reid?
Stephen McPhail - having a good season to date at Cardiff. Proper old-fashioned playmaker, with great range of passing, but lacking presence. This type of players is protected in international football though. Extremely one footed (left).
Joey O'Brien - tall & athletic and favours central midfield. Injured right now but maybe worth a look if we're winning well against San Marino.
Owen Garvan - has it all apparently but is only a kid and has yet to play this season due to illness.
Kevin Kilbane - NOT A CENTRAL MIDFIELDER
John O'Shea - defender who can play a bit but that's all. Lacks concentration & awareness.

There are others on the fringes too but not realistic contenders. Glenn Whelan doesn't seem to be making progress. Potter is at Wolves now but not starting.

Others?

[NeilMcD]

Lee Carsley possibly

[colster]

In the aftermath of Roy Keane's first retirement I felt that a 3-5-2 might be a solution.

My thinking was we had players with talent like Duff, Andy Reid, Robbie etc. but who we struggled to get involved, so add an extra man where it counts - either in the engine room, or further forward.

I've been hammered on this forum before for suggesting it. The Aussies and Croats used something along these lines in the WC. I saw the Aussies first hand & they were so well drilled by Hiddink. 3 big lads at the back, Grella permanently in front. We don't have a Grella but I reckon in about 7 positions we have better players, or at least as good.

Wales cover up for their inadequacies by doing the same.

The only time we tried something similar we botched it. Wrong players and no real understanding from management how it works.

I'd just love to see us tactically adaptable enough to at least use it as a plan B to either break down a defence minded minnow at home, or try and recover a deficit away, like on Saturday.

But deep down I don't think drastic action is required. Playing central midfielders in central midfield is where I'd start!

Didn't we try a 3-4-3 against Chile (I think)? Kelly played as centre half.

[Stuttgart88]

That's right. It was Kelly's selection in that role that was a key error in my opinion.

soccerc told me that Kelly was an absolute disaster at centre-back up in Lurgan when we played the Norn Iron U21s.

He's slightly built but well suited to be an attacking full back.

3 at the back requires 3 strong lads in my opinion. I can't recall exactly how we were set up that day, but it did appear that the players were clueless as to their roles.

[youngirish]

There are others on the fringes too but not realistic contenders. Glenn Whelan doesn't seem to be making progress. Potter is at Wolves now but not starting.

Others?

I like the look of Chris McCann from Burnley more so than Whelan or Potter. Lots of potential but not a serious contender for a while yet. I reckon Timlin at Fulham is possibly an option by the end of this season also though it's too early to tell. We'll see how many games he gets. Hopefully he can break into the team like Ireland and O'Brien last year and hold onto his place.

[shakermaker1982]

Reid and Reid would be my starting central MF players. Kilbane and O'Shea have had their go and don't come up to scratch. Keep em in the squad for cover but nothing else.

I'd like to see Douglas and J O'Brien getting a fair crack as well but with no friendly this week we are going into the Cyprus game not knowing our best team.

[ken foree]

Others?

i remember o'connor and thornton being heavily touted on here and the latter, from what little i've seen, certainly has skill but perhaps too much youthful indiscipline, to put it nicely. would love to see s. ireland and s. reid in midfield.

[endabob1]

That's right. It was Kelly's selection in that role that was a key error in my opinion.

soccerc told me that Kelly was an absolute disaster at centre-back up in Lurgan when we played the Norn Iron U21s.

He's slightly built but well suited to be an attacking full back.

3 at the back requires 3 strong lads in my opinion. I can't recall exactly how we were set up that day, but it did appear that the players were clueless as to their roles.

Kelly is a tall lad who might fill out (not as much as dunne though ) but he cerainly does have the frame to be a centre back. He played most of his games for the Spurs reserves there but only ever played at right or left full for the first team, not sure where he's played since he went to Birmingham.