Harte had been dropped from the Irish team long before he went to Spain and briefly won his place back while in Spain. David Connolly scored almost all of his Ireland goals while starring in the Dutch second division. Robbie Keane played in every Irish international while he was at Inter.
Fahey and Doyle both improved immensely when they went to England and despite the improvement Fahey is still only a fringe player.
If you're going to make things up, at least try to make them things that aren't so easily disproven.
Agree with Charlie, you're talking out your arse. Do a tiny bit of research and you'll see that Trap pubicly excused McGeady from the match to sort out his move to Russia
You've shot yourself in the foot there. Each one of those intended examples actually disproves your theory, as aptly demonstrated by 'Charlie Darwin'. Who are the lists of others you must be referring to when you write "etc, etc."?Originally Posted by mypost
How on earth would you know who the management is watching or not? Plenty of examples have been given to demonstrate that what you're claiming is complete nonsense. There really isn't any evidence to suggest to the contrary that if a player is considered up to international standard, he'll play for Ireland, regardless of whatever country he plays in. A belief in anything else is unduly cynical, if not an outright conspiracy theory.Once they're not playing in England or Celtic, they're practically ignored by the management, and the general public.
And I dunno why you're bringing the general Irish public into this... What does the public have to do with it? When did the general Irish public ever remotely bother to follow something en masse that isn't fed to them direct through their television sets? I think you're trying to justify your own ignorance of these players with that odd and irrelevant inclusion. One thing you can be sure of is that the management aren't choosing squads based on the limited knowledge and insight of the general public.
Fahey is still only a squad player, as 'Charlie' highlights, and even when he first made his move back across the pond, as they say, it's not as if he went straight into the international side. Same for Doyle; it was a few months after joining Reading until he made his senior debut. I'm an advocate for a strong game in Ireland and as much as I like to see current and former League of Ireland players do well for themselves, to suggest that the league here is of a standard that will adequately prepare a player for regularly playing sides at the pinnacle of international football is just deluded. Fahey and Doyle weren't shunned whilst at St. Pat's and Cork; they simply weren't considered to have proven that they were yet good enough. Once they proved they were able to make a competitive step up, they received recognition for this. It's not coincidental that a player shows himself as a precious talent and is signed up by a club with greater clout around the same time when the FAI begins to take greater notice of him. Besides, hasn't Trap stated that he views Conor Powell of Bohs to be a potential option at left-full? Playing in the league didn't stop previous managers calling up Jason Byrne and Glen Crowe either.Look at Keith Fahy tonight. Look at Kevin Doyle in recent years. More than capable players who were deliberately shunned until they crossed the water.
And, furthermore, Kevin Doyle moved to Reading from Cork at the age of 21, if I'm not mistaken. He'd been in our under-21 team whilst at Cork and made eleven appearances for the side. Hardly amounts to shunning...
McGeady was given leave, presumably at his own behest or consultation with Trap and the FAI. He is in Moscow undergoing a medical and signing a contract, after all, isn't he? Nothing at all has been said to indicate we'll never see nor hear of him again.McGeady may as well retire from international football, if he goes to Moscow. The exclusion of him tonight, is the start of what his life in the Ireland setup is about to become.
Edit: He's actually in Frankfurt for the medical, not that that makes any difference.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 12/08/2010 at 3:54 AM.
On this whole myth that a player will get straight into the international set-up once he moves to Britain from the League of Ireland, it's not as if Seamus Coleman, for example, has gone straight into the international team since his move from Sligo to Everton and subsequent loan performances for Blackpool last season. This all in spite of the many calls on here and amongst Ireland's support generally, I'd imagine, for his inclusion. He will be included in time if he continues to improve and demonstrate he's up to it. He always has been on the radar of our under-age staff anyway.
There's quite evidently no policy of shunning players just because they're not playing in either England or with Celtic. How utterly preposterous a notion. This country does have a depressing - one might even argue shameful - reliance on the British game - that cannot be denied - and your overt cynicism is a subtle expression of grievance and clearly an attempt to attack what you see as our football association ignoring the league you love, but in this instance, as incompetent as the FAI is in running the League of Ireland, you're attacking something that just doesn't exist. Really.
While in Spain, Ian Harte wasn't considered until we had run out of full backs through injury. Which backs up my point.
The fact Fahy and Doyle are/were fringe players when they arrived is irrelevant to this discussion. The point is, they were shunned until they arrived in England. Doyle got his first squad call-up within weeks of his move from Cork, Fahy not much later after moving from Pats.
Frank Stapleton was also given the cold shoulder by JC while he was at Ajax. He made few appearances for Ireland afterwards.
I know the official reasons why he left. The point I'm making is, it's imo the start of things to come for him, regarding his Ireland career. He will get games, but not as often as he was. I think he recognises that, and is one of the reasons why the transfer is taking so long.
Basically the unwritten rule is, if you're not in the UK, you're on your own.
Last edited by mypost; 12/08/2010 at 4:19 AM.
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Stapleton went to Ajax in 1987 at the age of 31, so it's only inevitable that he would have seen fewer games at this age; he was on the way out anyway with younger players like Aldridge, Cascarino and Quinn making their mark on the scene. I'd imagine that would have more to do with him getting less playing time rather than the fact he decided to move outside of the UK to play his football. I'm not sure of the ins and out of it, but I'm aware Stapleton didn't always see eye-to-eye with Charlton either, although I doubt this was over any decision to play his football outside of the UK. If I'm mistaken, feel free to correct me. He still captained Ireland in all three of our Euro '88 games, mind you, so I'm not sure where that leaves your point ultimately.
I'd argue that there are plenty of other more obvious reasons as to why the transfer process is taking so long - namely, the length of travel-time between Glasgow and Moscow, McGeady's possible holding out for interest from Aston Villa before O'Neill's resignation, the player having to make sure he's making the right lifestyle choice to live in what many might think of as an alien environment (people generally don't make such decisions overnight) and his having to fly to Frankfurt for a medical - but I suppose we'll have to wait and see on this one. I'll get back to you in a few months.I know the official reasons why he left. The point I'm making is, it's imo the start of things to come for him, regarding his Ireland career. He will get games, but not as often as he was. I think he recognises that, and is one of the reasons why the transfer is taking so long.
Aside from dropping Stapleton (which had nothing to do with him joining Ajax, but rather for personal reasons, as Charlton outlined in his autobiogbraphy), Jack Charlton also picked Mick McCarthy (Lyon), Kevin Moran (Sporting Gijon) and John Aldridge (Real Sociedad) consistently while they were on the continent. Connolly was an ever-present in the squad while with Feyenoord/Exelsior, as was Cascarino at Marseille/Nancy. Harte was first dropped by Brian Kerr when he was still at Leeds, and going to Levante didn't change his situation. His inconsistent form for Ireland, when selected, didn't help his cause.
As for the LOI debate, Doyle did not get his first cap until March 2006, nine months after joining Reading - by which time he was into double figures for the season, and one of the top scorers in the Championship. Fahey wasn't called up until last summer, after a tidy (if unspectacular) year and a half with Birmingham.
Because he wasn't good enough.
Because they weren't good enough.The fact Fahy and Doyle are/were fringe players when they arrived is irrelevant to this discussion. The point is, they were shunned until they arrived in England.
Neither of these points is remotely true.Doyle got his first squad call-up within weeks of his move from Cork, Fahy not much later after moving from Pats.
Doyle got his first squad call up in October 2005, 4 months after leaving Cork City. He was perfectly capable of being called up before then, but because he wasn't playing in England, never was.
Whether Ian Harte was or wasn't good enough is a moot point, but it's not mine. The facts are he wasn't considered for selection for 12 months after moving to Spain, partly because he was playing in Spain. That is my point.
Stapleton moved to Ajax in 1987. Later, he went on to play for Anderlecht and Le Havre. Two years later, he was part of the retirement shootout with Brady and Galvin in the Germany game. Having survived it, he retired the following year.
LOI players are automatically excluded from selection these days, not because of ability, but because of location. Unlike most international teams, none of today's squad* play their trade anywhere else bar England or Scotland. They know what the benefits and consequences for their international career are, of that. It's not a coincidence.
*McGeady excepted.
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Nonsense. Glen Crowe made an appearance for Ireland as late as 2003 despite playing in the League of Ireland, whilst Jason Byrne was called up as late as 2006; the appearances of both these players in an Ireland shirt either side of Doyle's first call-up indicates that there was no policy whatsoever of shunning League of Ireland players in effect when it came to deciding whether or not to bring Doyle, an under-21 international anyway whilst at Cork, into the senior set-up. Doyle moved to Reading at the age of 21 so naturally you'd expect him to progress to the senior team at that point if considered able enough.
Why do you so steadfastly believe that there is some policy at play behind the scenes? What would the motive or rationale behind it be and how would it benefit the FAI to shun Irish-based players who, on the off-chance, could otherwise offer something more to the international team than what would be on offer from other players playing elsewhere at a higher level?
I'm not sure you're making a point about Stapleton there at all. You haven't really dealt with anything I said and it just reads like a short bio of his footballing career post-Ajax; the decline of which can be more accurately put down to his ageing, no longer being good enough, being replaced by younger attackers in the Ireland team and, at a stretch, maybe a personal spat with Jack Charlton.
It's not a moot point. To the contrary, it is the point. It's simply the most obvious reason as to why he wasn't called up to the team. He had a poor World Cup in 2002 and never really recovered his form thereafter. He was first dropped whilst still playing at Leeds, as has already been pointed out.
Joe Gamble also won a couple of caps, as recently as 2007, while playing for Cork City.
I'm sure we're going to get fleeting exceptions in posts throughout the day, but in all the above cases, they amounted to no more than token appearances, some of them injury time substitutions. It's not proof that LOI players are allowed to freely play for the senior team.
Will McGeady play again for Ireland? Probably. Will he play regularly? Probably not. Will the management team fly out to Russia to watch him? Absolutely not.
JC decided 24 years ago, that LOI players weren't good enough to play for Ireland. His successors carried, and continue to carry out that policy. Moving away from Britain has mainly hindered rather than helped that cause. We all know there are a minimum of exceptions, and post-Charlton's appointment, that minimum is very very very small. The policy is what it is, if you don't want to believe it, fair enough.
Last edited by mypost; 12/08/2010 at 7:21 AM.
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Err, yes, it is. Self-evidently so. What other proof could one offer as evidence that League of Ireland players are allowed to freely play for the senior team other than providing perfectly valid examples of League of Ireland players actually freely playing for the senior team?
You might call them "fleeting exceptions". It probably appears that way because those who are anywhere near international standard and still plying their trade in the League of Ireland are extremely few and far between. That's just a reality, whether we like it or not. See, you've erected your argument so that you can't really lose either way, but in doing so you're contradicting yourself somewhat. First, you say that Doyle was deserving of a call-up whilst playing with Cork. If he's ignored, you say it's indicative of some behind-the-scenes official policy against calling up Irish-based players. If your wishes were met and he had have been called up, you would have considered it a fleeting exception or a token gesture anyway. A general shun policy with token selections here and there could exist in theory, but, in the absence of any evidence of such, there are much better explanations available for the lack of League of Ireland players in our international side. Seeing as the FAI were supposedly so willing to make these token gestures every once in a while, why not have given Doyle a go instead of Jason Byrne or someone?
Is what it is? As in a conspiracy theory you have concocted with rather scant supporting evidence beyond a stubborn sense of grievance?The policy is what it is, if you don't want to believe it, fair enough.
He was playing in the U21s regularly before the move.
So the fact that he wasn't good enough is irrelevant? John O'Shea was playing regularly for Man United at the top of the Premiership, and in the Champions Leauge. Levante finished 18th and were relegated from the Primera Liga the same season. But you still think he should have been included?
Trapattoni has praised McGeady since he first took over, and constantly picked him for squads. I don't see that changing in the future.
Why would they go to Novosibirsk no active Sibir player has ever played for the Russian national team, the likes of Chizhov and Laktionov got thier only caps (1 and 2) while playing at other clubs, this is Sibir's first season in the Russian Premier league, they are very much small fry in terms of Russian football. It's similar with Terek in terms of national team players, they have had no Russian NT players for years, they do have a few Bulgarians, Ukrainians and Georgian internationals playing with them though - their best Russian player, Lakhiyalov the Dagestani, hasnt been in the reckoning for the Russian National team as he faces inordinate competition in central midfield the more gifted of the Yatchenko twins might get into the squad if he gets lucky but I can't see him starting any competitive games for years.
Rotor Volgograd had a bit of international pedigree 10 years ago when the likes of a young Aldonin were playing there, but they've been struggling of late playing southern regional leagues and being on the verge of being declared bankrupt. There is no prospect of anyone from the FAI (or the Slovak federation) going to these cities. Why would they anyway, given 5 of the teams in the Premier League (Spartak, Lokomotiv, CSKA, Dinamo and Saturn) come from the greater Moscow area, and Moscow teams together with Zenit and Rubin provide almost all of the domestic players in the Russian squad ?
Brady may yet be able to combine his roles with Arsenal and Ireland, especially in the context of scouting players / opposition. Arsenal have as much chance of drawing a Russian team in their group as a French or German team (Rubin and Spartak are already in the group stage and Zenit have to beat Auxerre) if Brady goes then one would hope he might pass on information to the FAI about key players etc.
Looking at your other posts in this thread it seems as though your arguement is not about continential (or further abroad) players not getting a fair chance of being selected for Ireland - as you have ignored the examples of Cascarino, Aldridge, Connolly etc getting regularly selected while playing on the continent and even the examples of the likes of Lapira who have been given a chance despite hardly playing professional football. Your primary gripe seems to be the fact that few Airtricity League players have been selected in the last decade or so, which is a seperate arguement.
MYPOST would it be folly to assume you are a huge fan of the League of Ireland perchance?
which has absolutely no relevance in this thread
Havin a weekend away is quite frankly,lettin ur team mates down!
I think a lot of people have failed to grasp one of the key fundamentals of the Internet; there is no point in trying to argue with MyPost, he lives in his own little world and never agrees with anyone about anything.
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This is nuthin' ...You should pop over to the Eurovision Uberthread and try explaining to him that directing the sum of the national effort toward winning Eurovision might just be a misallocation of already scarce resources. ;-D
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