Advice on the Laws of the Game

**The Ref** · 11/09/2006, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by Goals4fun

and another,
a player takes a throw to a team mate. He heads this directly backwards (on purpose) for the keeper to pick up. The keeper comes and picks the ball up (inside the box)
what is the decision?

This is a tricky one, Decision 3 of Law 12 of the International FA Board who decide the laws of the game state:

Subject to the terms of Law 12, a player may pass the ball to his own goalkeeper using his head or chest or knee, etc. If, however, in the opinion of the referee, a player uses a deliberate trick while the ball is in play in order to circumvent the Law, the player is guilty of unsporting behaviour. He is cautioned, shown the yellow card and an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team from the place where the infringement occurred.

A player using a deliberate trick to circumvent the Law while he is taking a free kick is cautioned for unsporting behaviour and shown the yellow card. The free kick is retaken.

In such circumstances, it is irrelevant whether the goalkeeper subsequently
touches the ball with his hands or not. The offence is committed
by the player in attempting to circumvent both the letter and
the spirit of Law 12.

Now it dosen't mention a throw in, only tricks and free kick, therefore I would be of the opinion that no offence has occured.

I could see how a referee could take the view that it was a deliberate trick and give an indirect free kick and caution the player, although as I said I wouldn't be of that opinion.

**The Ref** · 11/09/2006, 5:09 PM

Originally Posted by Goals4fun

hey ref what about this one,
a defender plays the ball back to the keeper ( a true backpass 100%). the keeper goes to kick the ball but it bounces over his leg (does not touch it). The ball is definately going into the goal and the keeper dives and catches it. what is the decision?

This actually happened in a game I did a couple of years ago. My view then was "no free kick" as the goal keeper had made a genuine attempt to play the ball with his foot i.e. kick it, a massive bobble took the ball away from him and the keeper ran back and caught the ball on the line just before the centre forward finished it.

After the game a referee assessor came over to me and told me that;

a) I should have awarded an indirect free kick to the attacking team because the law states an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a goalkeeper, inside his own penalty area touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate

b) Sent the goalkeeper off because he denied an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick

These are the rules, but it is not necessarily what I would do if an assessor was NOT present

**The Ref** · 11/09/2006, 5:44 PM

Originally Posted by Hoops 1967

I was at a game yesterday. One team scored and as the players were heading back towards there half of the field, the other team centered off and had a shot at goal. The ref said that if it had gone in he would have allowed it, even though there were 3 or 4 players from the team who scored still in the wrong half of the pitch as the ball was centered off. Was the ref correct?? or should everyone be in the right side of the pitch when the ball is centered off.

For a kick/centre/tip off (different areas call it different things) all players must be their own half of the field, as this was not the case the kick off should have been retaken. (Law 8 refers)

**The Ref** · 11/09/2006, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by W.R.F.C

Ref during our match yesterday with hill celtic, frank o,neill disallowed a goal cause he said u need more than 2 on the line. A hill celtic player and goalkeeper were on the line when our forward tapped in a perfectly good goal, what was that clown on about when he didnt award it

May I say, I would appreciate if we didn't name the referee in question in future (I could be the referee in question, not here though). I have no problem with clubs being named, but not the referees.

Now I presume that the referee blew for offside, it is important to remember that a player is offside when "the ball" is played/passed to the player in that position. You only state that the keeper and player where on the line when the goal was scored, you don't say anything about the lead up to the goal.

Was it that your centre forward was offside when the ball was passed to him? I don't know, I just guessing from the information you provided.

If you outline the situation in more detail, maybe I can give a more definitive answer.

**Hoops 1967** · 12/09/2006, 8:34 AM

see next post

**Hoops 1967** · 12/09/2006, 8:36 AM

Originally Posted by The Ref

This actually happened in a game I did a couple of years ago. My view then was "no free kick" as the goal keeper had made a genuine attempt to play the ball with his foot i.e. kick it, a massive bobble took the ball away from him and the keeper ran back and caught the ball on the line just before the centre forward finished it.

After the game a referee assessor came over to me and told me that;

a) I should have awarded an indirect free kick to the attacking team because the law states an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a goalkeeper, inside his own penalty area touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate

b) Sent the goalkeeper off because he denied an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player�s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick

These are the rules, but it is not necessarily what I would do if an assessor was NOT present

Thanks for your reply to my previous question.

From reading your reply to another question, you seem to imply that you would not follow the rule for backpasses if no referee assessor was present. I find this interesting, on one hand you state the rule clearly yet on the other hand you say you would not follow that rule???
I thought refs were supposed to enforce the rules of the game, not do as they please.

**Old keeper** · 12/09/2006, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Hoops 1967

Thanks for your reply to my previous question.

From reading your reply to another question, you seem to imply that you would not follow the rule for backpasses if no referee assessor was present. I find this interesting, on one hand you state the rule clearly yet on the other hand you say you would not follow that rule???
I thought refs were supposed to enforce the rules of the game, not do as they please.

Thars a bit harsh Hoops

I think the ref was implying commonsense! it would be silly to penalise a keeper for a natural reaction, any keeper would try to prevent a goal being scored after ha howler of a miss. If the keeper was trying to kick the ball therefore he was applying the rules of the game but when the gods took a hand surely the "backpass" took a different turn. I am speaking as a poor harrassed keeper. I would also have rushed back to prevent the goal and would probably have expected to conceed an indirect free kick but would go ballistic if I was shown a red card.

**seand** · 12/09/2006, 10:46 AM

One more for The Ref! These days its common practice for players to put the ball out of play for injuries etc. I was wondering if a ref would be within his rights to book a player/award a free if, for example, Team A took advantage of Team B putting the ball out of play to allow attention to an injured member of Team A.

ok, TWO more questions for the The Ref!! I had this experience playing in the Phoenix Park last season... a defender intercepted a pass and knocked it back towards the keeper. It was unclear, and a matter of opinion, whether it was a back pass or not. The keeper had a little time and asked the ref if he could pick it up. Ref refused to answer! I'm sure he's under no obligation to answer, but it seemed at the time that he was trying to catch the keeper out! Would you advise the keeper one way or the other in that situation? (assuming he has enough time to get an answer and react accordingly)

**Goals4fun** · 12/09/2006, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by Old keeper

Thars a bit harsh Hoops

I think the ref was implying commonsense! it would be silly to penalise a keeper for a natural reaction, any keeper would try to prevent a goal being scored after ha howler of a miss. If the keeper was trying to kick the ball therefore he was applying the rules of the game but when the gods took a hand surely the "backpass" took a different turn. I am speaking as a poor harrassed keeper. I would also have rushed back to prevent the goal and would probably have expected to conceed an indirect free kick but would go ballistic if I was shown a red card.

but think how the other team would feel. they were deliberatly cheated of a goal. that is why the ref has to be down the middle and play to the letter of the law. Unfortunately commonsense is why ref's do different thing and that is what causes confusion.

**Hoops 1967** · 12/09/2006, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Old keeper

Thars a bit harsh Hoops

I think the ref was implying commonsense! it would be silly to penalise a keeper for a natural reaction, any keeper would try to prevent a goal being scored after ha howler of a miss. If the keeper was trying to kick the ball therefore he was applying the rules of the game but when the gods took a hand surely the "backpass" took a different turn. I am speaking as a poor harrassed keeper. I would also have rushed back to prevent the goal and would probably have expected to conceed an indirect free kick but would go ballistic if I was shown a red card.

True Old Keeper a red card would have been harsh but it was defo a free kick.
How many refs are there in the LDMC and are the refs graded, as in who gets to ref premier games and who gets to ref 4B games?

**The Ref** · 12/09/2006, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by Hoops 1967

True Old Keeper a red card would have been harsh but it was defo a free kick.

How many refs are there in the LDMC and are the refs graded, as in who gets to ref premier games and who gets to ref 4B games?

Lively debate in my absence.

A good referee uses his common sense when he assesses each situation, I deal with each case on its merits. I explained the rule as it should be (the theoretical answer), but never said what I would do in such an example.

Whether it was a free kick of not, if I'm honest, would depend on the situation. I can say I would not be in favour of punishing the keeper with a red card.

**The Ref** · 12/09/2006, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by Goals4fun

but think how the other team would feel. they were deliberatly cheated of a goal. that is why the ref has to be down the middle and play to the letter of the law. Unfortunately commonsense is why ref's do different thing and that is what causes confusion.

If a referee didn't use common sense, a game would never flow, it would be stop-start, and each half would last over an hour.

**The Ref** · 12/09/2006, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by seand

One more for The Ref! These days its common practice for players to put the ball out of play for injuries etc. I was wondering if a ref would be within his rights to book a player/award a free if, for example, Team A took advantage of Team B putting the ball out of play to allow attention to an injured member of Team A.

ok, TWO more questions for the The Ref!! I had this experience playing in the Phoenix Park last season... a defender intercepted a pass and knocked it back towards the keeper. It was unclear, and a matter of opinion, whether it was a back pass or not. The keeper had a little time and asked the ref if he could pick it up. Ref refused to answer! I'm sure he's under no obligation to answer, but it seemed at the time that he was trying to catch the keeper out! Would you advise the keeper one way or the other in that situation? (assuming he has enough time to get an answer and react accordingly)

I will answer this question is its two parts

a) A question similar to this actually started this thread so this is the answer I gave then

There is no rule. If a player kicks the ball out of play, the opposition are under no obligation to return the ball to them, also if the referee stops the game in order for a player to receive treatment and no foul has occured, a drop ball restarts the game neither team is obligated to return the ball. (For a drop ball) If a player states to the referee that he is returning the ball to the oppisition and the drop ball becomes uncontested and that player "changes his mind" and dosen't pass the ball back, there is nothing the referee can do (offically), in practice, most referees will stop the game and re-drop the ball which will then become fiercly contested.

b) The referee is under no obligation to tell the keeper if he can pick the ball up or not.

If a keeper asks me, I will tell him "yes" or "no". Also if the attacking team shouts as the ball is going to the keeper "close him down he can't pick it up", if in my opinion he can I will retort "yes he can" or "keeper you can pick that"

I hope this answers your questions.

The Ref

**seand** · 13/09/2006, 8:07 AM

Thanks Ref, really appreciate you taking the time to comment on these things.

Regarding drop balls, not giving the ball back etc, Law 12 states "A player is cautioned...if he... 1. is guilty of unsporting behaviour". Could a ref interpret failure to return a ball as "unsporting behaviour"? I'd have thought it was.

With reference to another discussion in this thread, I notice in Law 12,
Sending-Off Offences
A player..is sent off and shown the red card if...
4. denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)

This suggests to me that a keeper shouldn't be sent off even for deliberately handling a backpass that is going in

**football fan** · 13/09/2006, 9:13 AM

Originally Posted by The Ref

After the game a referee assessor came over to me and told me that;

a) I should have awarded an indirect free kick to the attacking team because the law states an indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a goalkeeper, inside his own penalty area touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate

b) Sent the goalkeeper off because he denied an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player�s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick

These are the rules, but it is not necessarily what I would do if an assessor was NOT present

Just to point out the following:

1. You award an indirect free kick for handling a back pass. You do not award nothing because he attempted to play the ball with his foot.

2. You do not send the goalkeeper off. You cannot award a penalty against the goalkeeper for handling the ball INSIDE the area. The offence is handling a back pass.

3. You should never referee a match to suit an assessor. This gives rise to inconsistency and this is what annoys managerand players and fans.

To the Ref and your assessor, WE NEED TO TALK!

**The Ref** · 13/09/2006, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by football fan

Just to point out the following:

1. You award an indirect free kick for handling a back pass. You do not award nothing because he attempted to play the ball with his foot.

2. You do not send the goalkeeper off. You cannot award a penalty against the goalkeeper for handling the ball INSIDE the area. The offence is handling a back pass.

3. You should never referee a match to suit an assessor. This gives rise to inconsistency and this is what annoys managerand players and fans.

To the Ref and your assessor, WE NEED TO TALK!

Football fan,

Maybe I didn't explain myself correctly, I was trying to outline what happened and that I had not given an indirect free kick at the time. I then outlined what the assessor told me and that was the true position.

The second point, as I stated the keeper caught the ball on the line before a centre forward finished it. Law 12 states " A player is sent off and shown the red card if he denies an obvious goal scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player�s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick"

The goalkeeper has:
1. Denied a obvious goal scoring opportunity;
2. The opponent was moving toward the goalkeepers� goal;
3. The offence was punished by a free kick, albeit an indirect free kick.

Law 12 does not state that the free kick must be direct or indirect - in the absence of guidance it can be either.

But if an assessor was not present I don't think I would give a red card.

You say you should never referee a game to suit an assessor, sadly when an assessor is present common sense and pragmatism go out the window, if you use either of these commodities when an assessor is present, well lets face it, you will be refereeing Division 3 Saturday or Division 3A Sunday for the rest of the season. Survival of the fittest.

**seand** · 14/09/2006, 3:26 PM

Originally Posted by The Ref

You say you should never referee a game to suit an assessor, sadly when an assessor is present common sense and pragmatism go out the window, if you use either of these commodities when an assessor is present, well lets face it, you will be refereeing Division 3 Saturday or Division 3A Sunday for the rest of the season. Survival of the fittest.

Oi, bitta respect for Division 3 Saturday! I gave some of my best years to Division 3 Saturday!

**Old keeper** · 17/09/2006, 10:17 PM

Hers a bad one for you

Playing a game this morning. one of our players was in a challenge with the opposition and as he was geting up to walk away the opponent headbutted him he fell to the ground and needed 4 stitches after the game. the ref said he did not see the incident but gave the offending player a yellow card? when asked afterwards he said he cautioned the player for messing

Is there any guideline for this type of incident?

**The Ref** · 18/09/2006, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by Old keeper

Hers a bad one for you

Playing a game this morning. one of our players was in a challenge with the opposition and as he was geting up to walk away the opponent headbutted him he fell to the ground and needed 4 stitches after the game. the ref said he did not see the incident but gave the offending player a yellow card? when asked afterwards he said he cautioned the player for messing

Is there any guideline for this type of incident?

The age old saying is "you can't give what you can't see", if the referee (or his team in a match with more than one official) didn't see the incident then he can't punish the offender.

As for the yellow card, "messing" is not one of the seven offences for giving a yellow card, if your league requires reports for yellow cards (under FAI rules, I seem to remember that 5 yellow cards = 1 match suspension), it would be interesting to see what offence the referee reports it under.

I will say, something may have happened or was said that referee saw/heard that warrented a yellow card but from what you have said - no card should have been shown.

**Soccer Lover** · 18/09/2006, 9:26 PM

Originally Posted by Old keeper

Hers a bad one for you

Playing a game this morning. one of our players was in a challenge with the opposition and as he was geting up to walk away the opponent headbutted him he fell to the ground and needed 4 stitches after the game. the ref said he did not see the incident but gave the offending player a yellow card? when asked afterwards he said he cautioned the player for messing

Is there any guideline for this type of incident?

Isnt that Shelbourne team the guts of the Distillery team from last year

It dosen't surprise me that one of there player would stoop to headbutting a player, they are also the masters of spitting at you as well off the ball.

Its a pity you dont suspend the lot of them with val ward as well