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Thread: Advice on the Laws of the Game

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ref View Post
    In the Laws of the game it specifically states "If, after both teams have taken five kicks, both have scored the same number of goals, or have not scored any goals, kicks continue to be taken in the same order until one team has scored a goal more than the other from the same number of kicks"

    So in answer to you question yes the rules expicitly state the penalty takers must go in the same order as the first.

    The Ref

    Big thanks to the Ref for his input so far as his answers have been very concise and helpful.

    Bear in mind The Ref is trying to clarify stuff that causes mayhem here
    every week.
    Last edited by the 12 th man; 06/09/2006 at 9:32 AM.

  2. #42
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ref View Post
    In the Laws of the game it specifically states "If, after both teams have taken five kicks, both have scored the same number of goals, or have not scored any goals, kicks continue to be taken in the same order until one team has scored a goal more than the other from the same number of kicks"

    So in answer to you question yes the rules expicitly state the penalty takers must go in the same order as the first round.

    The Ref
    That reads to me that if, after five penalties, we're still level, the teams continue taking one penalty each in the same order (i.e first Drogheda, then Start). It doesn't mention what happens after 11 penalties though?

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    It's amazing how two people can read the same thing and come up with different conclusions.

    My interpretation, and the general consensus around refereeing circles is that this provision provides that the teams must go in the same rotation as the first round. Personally I have never been involved in a game that needed to go a second round of kicks but I can tell you that it has been vigorously debated by Referees a number of times over the years and the conclusion has always been the same.

    I will bring it to the table in my Referees Society Branch again and see if the opinion is still the same.
    Smile........ it confuses people

  4. #44
    Biased against YOUR club pineapple stu's Avatar
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    It's the fact that it mentions "after five kicks", not "after every player remaining on the field of play has taken a kick" which leads me to my logic.

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    Heres another source of info but that too doesnt say anything about the order in which they are taken.

    It does however mention what has to happen when a team has finished the game with less than 11. Very interesting and not what I thought was supposed to happen.
    18 times, and that's a fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by larrywhite View Post
    Heres another source of info but that too doesnt say anything about the order in which they are taken.

    It does however mention what has to happen when a team has finished the game with less than 11. Very interesting and not what I thought was supposed to happen.
    You saw commentators mention this during the world cup; it was introduced to stop teams who had a player sent off from having what was perceived to be an advantage.

    Regarding the order kicks should be taken after everyone has taken one, I have contacted a number of colleagues around the country and they all agree that it should be in the same order, however between 10 of us (with a combined experience of over 100 years refereeing - we should really get out more), none of us had experience of it going the full way round.
    Smile........ it confuses people

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    Ref,

    Heres another one regarding penalty shoot outs .
    I believe the rule is that the penalty is over once the ball stops going forward or
    goes outwards from goal.
    What happens if a penalty in a penalty shoot out rebounds off the upright/crossbar
    and then comes outward but on its way out strikes the keeper and goes into the goal.
    Does this goal stand ?

    thanks

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by RouteOne View Post
    Ref,

    Heres another one regarding penalty shoot outs .
    I believe the rule is that the penalty is over once the ball stops going forward or
    goes outwards from goal.
    What happens if a penalty in a penalty shoot out rebounds off the upright/crossbar
    and then comes outward but on its way out strikes the keeper and goes into the goal.
    Does this goal stand ?

    thanks
    This was first brought to light during the 1986 World Cup in a game between France and Brazil. At that time a penalty was deemed to be completed when the ball was no longer travelling forward. During the penalty shotout, Bellone,a French player hit the post and it rebounded back about two yards and hit Carlos, the Brazil keeper in the back and went in.

    The referee allowed the goal, but under the laws of the game at that time was wrong. A lot of media picked up on it, which prompted FIFA to change that particular rule.

    Now the under the procedure for deciding the winner of a match with kicks from the penalty mark:

    “Unless otherwise stated, the relevant Laws of the Game and international F.A. Board Decisions apply when kicks from the penalty mark are being taken”

    which infers from Law 14 The Penalty Kick

    “When a penalty kick is taken during the normal course of play, or time has been extended at half-time or full time to allow a penalty kick to be taken or retaken, a goal is awarded if, before passing between the goalposts and under the crossbar the ball touches either or both of the goalposts and/or the crossbar, and/or the goalkeeper”

    So yes the Goal should stand.
    Smile........ it confuses people

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ref View Post
    This was first brought to light during the 1986 World Cup in a game between France and Brazil. At that time a penalty was deemed to be completed when the ball was no longer travelling forward. During the penalty shotout, Bellone,a French player hit the post and it rebounded back about two yards and hit Carlos, the Brazil keeper in the back and went in.

    The referee allowed the goal, but under the laws of the game at that time was wrong. A lot of media picked up on it, which prompted FIFA to change that particular rule.

    Now the under the procedure for deciding the winner of a match with kicks from the penalty mark:

    “Unless otherwise stated, the relevant Laws of the Game and international F.A. Board Decisions apply when kicks from the penalty mark are being taken”

    which infers from Law 14 The Penalty Kick

    “When a penalty kick is taken during the normal course of play, or time has been extended at half-time or full time to allow a penalty kick to be taken or retaken, a goal is awarded if, before passing between the goalposts and under the crossbar the ball touches either or both of the goalposts and/or the crossbar, and/or the goalkeeper”

    So yes the Goal should stand.
    But would it not count if it was in a penalty shoot out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge View Post
    But would it not count if it was in a penalty shoot out?
    Yes it would,

    As the only time this would need to be invoked is when the penalty is the last kick of the half (first or second). The directive is that you follow ALL the rules for a penalty kick during a shootout. A penalty kick is a shootout is in effect, exactly the same as a penalty that is taken as the last kick of the game therefore you follow the same rule.
    Smile........ it confuses people

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ref View Post
    Yes it would,

    As the only time this would need to be invoked is when the penalty is the last kick of the half (first or second). The directive is that you follow ALL the rules for a penalty kick during a shootout. A penalty kick is a shootout is in effect, exactly the same as a penalty that is taken as the last kick of the game therefore you follow the same rule.
    I don't want to be questioning you but I still feel your wrong. I definitely read or heard somewhere in the past year or so that if an incident like that happens in a penalty shoot out that it doesn't count. Also if the penalty was to be the last kick of the game would that not mean that if it hits off the keeper that it wouldn't count as the last kick of the ball had already taken place?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge View Post
    I don't want to be questioning you but I still feel your wrong. I definitely read or heard somewhere in the past year or so that if an incident like that happens in a penalty shoot out that it doesn't count. Also if the penalty was to be the last kick of the game would that not mean that if it hits off the keeper that it wouldn't count as the last kick of the ball had already taken place?
    The only things that we go on are the Laws of the game and there explanations. I recall, when the law was changed, FIFA's explanation and they used the Brazil example and that that goal would stand under the new wording. I have replicated word for word what is in the Law book states regarding the last kick of the game.

    The law also states that the Referee decides when the penalty has been completed and it can't be completed if it his the posts, and/or the goalkeeper before going in. If the ball still has a chance of going in the kick is NOT completed.

    I give you an example. The penalty taker hits the post, the ball takes a vicious spin, comes out and then spins into the net. Because the ball still had a chance of going in, the rule state explicitly "a goal is awarded if, before passing between the goalposts and under the crossbar the ball touches either or both of the goalposts and/or the crossbar, and/or the goalkeeper"

    The same could be said if the ball hits the post, then the goalkeeper, and then goes in for exactly the same reason.

    The rule is clear the goal should stand.

    If the referee rules otherwise, he is breach in obligations in upholding the laws of the game

    The Ref.
    Smile........ it confuses people

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ref View Post
    You saw commentators mention this during the world cup; it was introduced to stop teams who had a player sent off from having what was perceived to be an advantage.

    Regarding the order kicks should be taken after everyone has taken one, I have contacted a number of colleagues around the country and they all agree that it should be in the same order, however between 10 of us (with a combined experience of over 100 years refereeing - we should really get out more), none of us had experience of it going the full way round.
    I am sorry to say Ref but you and your colleagues are wrong. After all players that have finished the game have taken a penalty(in the case of the Drogheda game, 11 players on both sides), they DO NOT have to come back in the same order. In fact the player that takes number 11 could come back and take the very first penalty second time around.

    Very basic stuff Ref and one that you and your colleagues should be aware of.

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    Apprentice EddieAnnand's Avatar
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    Keeper Blocked?

    Heres one that happened in a game I played in recently. Opposing goalkeeper caught the ball. Ran to the edge of the area and took a quick kick from his hands which rebounded off our striker five yards away. Ref immediately gave a free out and booked our striker for blocking down the keeper.

    Is this correct?

    Does it matter if block is intentional or unintentional?

    Does the rule book state that a player has to be a certain distance away before he can block a kick out e.g. what happens if a keeper duffs his kick and it is blocked by a striker 25 yards from goal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ref View Post
    .

    My interpretation, and the general consensus around refereeing circles is that this provision provides that the teams must go in the same rotation as the first round.
    Just to let you know Ref that this is NOT the general consensus in refereeing circles. Any refs that I know are well aware that you DO NOT have to come back in the same order.

    As for it never happening to you, I was always told to expect the unexpected and therefore you should know these things if and when they happen.

    The one thing I will say is that it is NOT up to the referee to inform the teams. IF they want to follow the same order, so be it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieAnnand View Post
    Heres one that happened in a game I played in recently. Opposing goalkeeper caught the ball. Ran to the edge of the area and took a quick kick from his hands which rebounded off our striker five yards away. Ref immediately gave a free out and booked our striker for blocking down the keeper.

    Is this correct?

    Does it matter if block is intentional or unintentional?

    Does the rule book state that a player has to be a certain distance away before he can block a kick out e.g. what happens if a keeper duffs his kick and it is blocked by a striker 25 yards from goal?
    In the additional notes to referees it provides that it is an offence for a player to prevent a goalkeeper from releasing the ball from his hands.

    Also a player must be penalised for playing in a dangerous manner if he kicks or attempts to kick the ball when the goalkeeper is in the process of releasing it.

    In the case you have outlined, neither of thse conditions has been met therfore I can see no reason for a free kick, let alone a caution. It would appear that the referee was over zealous or maybe he saw something that you didn't.
    Smile........ it confuses people

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    Quote Originally Posted by football fan View Post
    Just to let you know Ref that this is NOT the general consensus in refereeing circles. Any refs that I know are well aware that you DO NOT have to come back in the same order.

    As for it never happening to you, I was always told to expect the unexpected and therefore you should know these things if and when they happen.

    The one thing I will say is that it is NOT up to the referee to inform the teams. IF they want to follow the same order, so be it.
    As I have said I will bring it back to my branch and I will report it back.

    I recall having a conversation a number of years ago about this with Tommy Hand, the late T.C. Doyle (both referee assessors at that time) and Paul Moyer (who no longer referees but who was on the FIFA panel of referee assistants at that time) and we all agreed that it was the same order.

    I take it from what you say (and from other posts you have posted) you are a referee as well, if you are I would welcome any input you may have.

    Once again I reiterate that I will ask the branch to discuss it, and if, as I suspect, you are a referee I would appriciate it if you asked your branch (we may even be members of the same branch)
    Smile........ it confuses people

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    First Team seand's Avatar
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    I have a question I'd like answered, its based on an incident in the league last year.

    Team A were awarded a free on the half-way line. As they prepared to take it a forward from Team A elbowed a defender from Team B and was sent off. Play was restarted with a free to Team B from the position of the second offence (the elbowing).

    I'd have bet a large sum of money that play should be restarted with a free on the halfway line to ten man Team A as the ball was "out of play" when the second offence, the elbow, took place?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ref View Post
    I take it from what you say (and from other posts you have posted) you are a referee as well, if you are I would welcome any input you may have.

    Once again I reiterate that I will ask the branch to discuss it, and if, as I suspect, you are a referee I would appriciate it if you asked your branch (we may even be members of the same branch)
    Sorry Ref but I am NOT a referee. I can say that my father and brother are referees so you can imagine the conversations in our house. I will ask them again and to go back to their branch with the question. Its from them that I get my information and my healthy respect for all you referees.

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    hi ref,

    is there any changes to the pass back rule this year, reason for question

    got bit angry with decision at weekend. where there was a melly in the box four our five players swiping for the ball, but it was our player that took at the swipe at ball the ball spun up bounce around six yard box and our keeper grabbed the ball. the ref then gives free kick for pass back.

    lucky nothing came about from it but was he right in his decision?

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